Wiki-Squidsipedia: Differences between Ocean Way Drums, Drum Masters and more...
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Reverend Rhythm Reverend Rhythm https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6041
- KVRAF
- 2859 posts since 21 Feb, 2003 from Woodstock, GA USA
I was just thinking that these are like the Squids posts of old. Keep 'em comin'!
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- Topic Starter
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
It may seem odd that I am copying and pasting answers from another forum outside of KVR but these are informative answers so I don't want people who frequent our official company forum to miss out. Someone asked who is who and what is what between Ocean Way Drums, Drum Masters, Infinite Player, Kontakt Player... so here is the answer I wrote and more:
Sonic Reality is the programmer and distributor of all of those products (and I am the owner of Sonic Reality btw). We have a Download Site called DownloadableSoundz.com http://www.downloadablesoundz.com
If you go there you can click on DRUM MASTERS and see everything there is to get for Drum Masters Series. You do need to first get the Infinite Player once (and it is half price at $50 right now so as you said that is easy).
If you click on OCEAN WAY DRUMS or simply go here: http://www.downloadablesoundz.com/oceanwaydrums and click on the "a la carte" button or just go to the next page which is this: http://www.downloadablesoundz.com/o2.php Then you can buy kits a la carte but you will need to first buy the Ocean Way Drums Expandable Player to be able to specifically read the Ocean Way Drums kits.
BOTH types of players are really "unlock codes" for the libraries to work with the included Kontakt Player (also it is required if you ever wanted to use it with the full version of Kontakt sampler - if you ever get it which is totally optional).
As far as who is who... we do these products in partnership with different artists, studios, producers etc. That's what my post about the Sonic Reality TV shows a bit of as well. In the case of Ocean Way Drums we partnered up with engineer/producers Allen Sides and Steven Miller as well as Ocean Way Recording studio (which Sides owns) to capture THAT sound the most authentic and luxurious (no expense spared) way. These guys recorded it there AND mixed it there! Weeks and weeks in a studio like that would cost someone an enormous amount of money so that is what makes having a library of it so great... the sound of that studio captured and usable as much as you want for not very much money.
With regard to Drum Masters, it is done by music style or specific artist (drummer) to capture a particular character sound... whether it is a Bonham-style kit (with the same specs as Bonzo used and same miking techniques etc.) or it is Jerry Marotta's signature Yamaha set that he uses to do his world beat influenced Gabrielesque rhythms... in this series we go to different studios all over the world (which you can watch on Sonic Reality TV... the Floyd style kit which is coming was something we got help from Alan Parsons who recorded Dark Side of the Moon and it was done at Mark Knopfler's studio because owns the same mixing console that was used on Dark Side at Abbey Road and late Beatles).
Anyway, ALL of it is programmed and distributed by Sonic Reality and/or sold by Sonic Reality dealers.
I hope that helps explain it!
By the way, Ocean Way Drums MULTICHANNEL kits have V-Drum TD20 support TODAY. Drum Masters will have V-Drum and flexible e-Drum mapping support added as a free update by next week some time. You can get it now or wait until next week. No difference you won't miss anything. BOTH are currently mapped in both GM format as well and our own format called "iMap" which has more articulations available from midi (and you can always map your kit TO those notes today as you wish to freely... in fact that's what I would do personally but if you want it easier then we've got it the other way around coming in a matter of days).
Sonic Reality is the programmer and distributor of all of those products (and I am the owner of Sonic Reality btw). We have a Download Site called DownloadableSoundz.com http://www.downloadablesoundz.com
If you go there you can click on DRUM MASTERS and see everything there is to get for Drum Masters Series. You do need to first get the Infinite Player once (and it is half price at $50 right now so as you said that is easy).
If you click on OCEAN WAY DRUMS or simply go here: http://www.downloadablesoundz.com/oceanwaydrums and click on the "a la carte" button or just go to the next page which is this: http://www.downloadablesoundz.com/o2.php Then you can buy kits a la carte but you will need to first buy the Ocean Way Drums Expandable Player to be able to specifically read the Ocean Way Drums kits.
BOTH types of players are really "unlock codes" for the libraries to work with the included Kontakt Player (also it is required if you ever wanted to use it with the full version of Kontakt sampler - if you ever get it which is totally optional).
As far as who is who... we do these products in partnership with different artists, studios, producers etc. That's what my post about the Sonic Reality TV shows a bit of as well. In the case of Ocean Way Drums we partnered up with engineer/producers Allen Sides and Steven Miller as well as Ocean Way Recording studio (which Sides owns) to capture THAT sound the most authentic and luxurious (no expense spared) way. These guys recorded it there AND mixed it there! Weeks and weeks in a studio like that would cost someone an enormous amount of money so that is what makes having a library of it so great... the sound of that studio captured and usable as much as you want for not very much money.
With regard to Drum Masters, it is done by music style or specific artist (drummer) to capture a particular character sound... whether it is a Bonham-style kit (with the same specs as Bonzo used and same miking techniques etc.) or it is Jerry Marotta's signature Yamaha set that he uses to do his world beat influenced Gabrielesque rhythms... in this series we go to different studios all over the world (which you can watch on Sonic Reality TV... the Floyd style kit which is coming was something we got help from Alan Parsons who recorded Dark Side of the Moon and it was done at Mark Knopfler's studio because owns the same mixing console that was used on Dark Side at Abbey Road and late Beatles).
Anyway, ALL of it is programmed and distributed by Sonic Reality and/or sold by Sonic Reality dealers.
I hope that helps explain it!
By the way, Ocean Way Drums MULTICHANNEL kits have V-Drum TD20 support TODAY. Drum Masters will have V-Drum and flexible e-Drum mapping support added as a free update by next week some time. You can get it now or wait until next week. No difference you won't miss anything. BOTH are currently mapped in both GM format as well and our own format called "iMap" which has more articulations available from midi (and you can always map your kit TO those notes today as you wish to freely... in fact that's what I would do personally but if you want it easier then we've got it the other way around coming in a matter of days).
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- Topic Starter
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
Okay, even more from another forum... Squids on fire!
randomization is something that CAN be great but it can also mess up one's deliberate control as well. Since this is simulating a real drum as best as possible (and nothing beats the real thing) then sometimes it is great when you avoid machine gun effects and sometimes it is bad if it just changes on you and you don't want it to!
What we've done is made it entirely editable and selectable down to each kit piece whether you want it alting or not. We're going to release some beta script patches to select people that own Drum Masters next week as a first phase. We may also release a trial Infinite Player and free kit too for anyone to check out. It will be interesting to see what some of you think in terms of the flexibility vs. ease of use. There is a step process to learn first to know how to do it... but it isn't hard.
One feature in the new Drum Masters script that I like is the velocity to pitch. It accentuates toms nicely if used subtely. Great for simulating when a tom is tuned lower too because in real life it would have more "throw" when hit harder from the stretching vs. if it was tuned up tight. But that's the key. Subtle. You can get drastic with it. At the moment we don't have a pitch randomization function but that might be nice if one needed more "humanization" than what was happening just with the switching of the samples. I don't know how into pitch variation I would personally be... I am not into dynamic randomization. But there are ways to vary it up a little. It really depends on how much the sample needs it. I don't do things as much by spec as I do by what the sound needs. Well, also, sometimes working with different people at different stages I end up having to work with what I've got. It depends sometimes on how many times you could get the drummer to hit the drums in the sample session! For someone like Danny Gottlieb, he'll sit there and hit cymbals for DAYS letting them fully decay and hitting different positions... but then you take someone like Bill Cobham who we also sampled and after the 7th tom he looks at you like "Are you KIDDING me????" Same thing with Peart. When we sampled Neil Peart his tech told me that ONLY Neil can hit the drums. Then after he got most of the way through it we ended up helping with some of the extra bits like crashes that just ring etc. That's why you can see me on his kit explaining how it gets sampled if you go here: http://www.sonicreality.tv and then click on the Drum Masters channel, the very first episode is me talking about how we sample a drum kit... in this case on Neil's kit. Amazing I was allowed to play it... even more amazing I had the guts to play a sort of Bonham groove example on his kit... and I am not really a drummer like you all. I'm a keyboard player/producer who would LOVE to play drums (that's why I love to sample them!). Anyway, you might like that episode if you're curious how we sample drums or you want to see Neil's monster DW kit. Also, you may get a few laughs when you see moments like when I pick up Neil's hat and didn't realize just how SWEATY it was! Drenched. I couldn't contain the shock but actually it was as wet as it possibly could be... the man did just finish rehearsing for the entire Rush concert which we recorded for grooves.
Btw, Neil's kit is coming out for BFD2 first and then will make its way into the Drum Masters series and Infinite Player format soon. We're almost done with the BFD2 version. Sounds great!
randomization is something that CAN be great but it can also mess up one's deliberate control as well. Since this is simulating a real drum as best as possible (and nothing beats the real thing) then sometimes it is great when you avoid machine gun effects and sometimes it is bad if it just changes on you and you don't want it to!
What we've done is made it entirely editable and selectable down to each kit piece whether you want it alting or not. We're going to release some beta script patches to select people that own Drum Masters next week as a first phase. We may also release a trial Infinite Player and free kit too for anyone to check out. It will be interesting to see what some of you think in terms of the flexibility vs. ease of use. There is a step process to learn first to know how to do it... but it isn't hard.
One feature in the new Drum Masters script that I like is the velocity to pitch. It accentuates toms nicely if used subtely. Great for simulating when a tom is tuned lower too because in real life it would have more "throw" when hit harder from the stretching vs. if it was tuned up tight. But that's the key. Subtle. You can get drastic with it. At the moment we don't have a pitch randomization function but that might be nice if one needed more "humanization" than what was happening just with the switching of the samples. I don't know how into pitch variation I would personally be... I am not into dynamic randomization. But there are ways to vary it up a little. It really depends on how much the sample needs it. I don't do things as much by spec as I do by what the sound needs. Well, also, sometimes working with different people at different stages I end up having to work with what I've got. It depends sometimes on how many times you could get the drummer to hit the drums in the sample session! For someone like Danny Gottlieb, he'll sit there and hit cymbals for DAYS letting them fully decay and hitting different positions... but then you take someone like Bill Cobham who we also sampled and after the 7th tom he looks at you like "Are you KIDDING me????" Same thing with Peart. When we sampled Neil Peart his tech told me that ONLY Neil can hit the drums. Then after he got most of the way through it we ended up helping with some of the extra bits like crashes that just ring etc. That's why you can see me on his kit explaining how it gets sampled if you go here: http://www.sonicreality.tv and then click on the Drum Masters channel, the very first episode is me talking about how we sample a drum kit... in this case on Neil's kit. Amazing I was allowed to play it... even more amazing I had the guts to play a sort of Bonham groove example on his kit... and I am not really a drummer like you all. I'm a keyboard player/producer who would LOVE to play drums (that's why I love to sample them!). Anyway, you might like that episode if you're curious how we sample drums or you want to see Neil's monster DW kit. Also, you may get a few laughs when you see moments like when I pick up Neil's hat and didn't realize just how SWEATY it was! Drenched. I couldn't contain the shock but actually it was as wet as it possibly could be... the man did just finish rehearsing for the entire Rush concert which we recorded for grooves.
Btw, Neil's kit is coming out for BFD2 first and then will make its way into the Drum Masters series and Infinite Player format soon. We're almost done with the BFD2 version. Sounds great!
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- Topic Starter
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
The new beta scripts which I almost have for you to check out have the ability to remap each kit piece articulation to anything you want! Then you save it back as a user map. Pretty cool! So no need to dig into the full Kontakt or using a midi remapper. Our new remap function even has midi learn so all you do is you select the kit piece articulation, smack the pad you want it to trigger from and then move on to the next... nice huh?
By the way, the more I was thinking about what the e-Drummer wants I came up with something that I think gets people the best of all worlds without doing anything more ridiculous than necessary. I am not a fan of just taking up computer resources and hard drive space without a benefit to the user... and I have seen many developers do it just so the spec is impressive... but there is a limit to how many instruments can always just be judged by sheer gigabyte size or the number of velocities. As a user myself I NEVER go by just the specs and it also depends on other things like how it sounds or by some of the criteria you all are mentioning.
The extra concern there is as a developer is really the fact that each person's tastes are different! Therefore there isn't one way that will please everybody... however, there is the possibility to have a system that gives people the most flexibility in each direction. For example...
1. If one happens to be a fan of the "out of the box" slamming rock processed sound - maybe even modeled after a particular drummer or band. That can be solved by us offering:
a. Natural sounds with built-in effects and kit patches. This way you have the instant effect you want but can still alter it... make it slam MORE even or dial it back.
b. Some sounds processed by particular hardware first either completely or in some partial combination... kind of like how I described how we have the upcoming Collins-style kits that have a channel with the Ball & Biscuit mic through the SSL talkback compressor recorded at Genesis studio...I know that I would want that to mix in with the other unprocessed drums so I am sure others would appreciate the convenience of having that "sound" ready to dial up authentically. Or, in Ocean Way Drums most of the drum channels are unprocessed but there are 3 room positions and two of the room positions ARE processed a little bit with compression (and also the "thwak" channels are done with a secret weapon rare vintage compressor they have at OW).
c. A little education and even some deal making on www.esoundz.com where we encourage people to get products like T-Racks http://www.esoundz.com/details.php?P...efcode=vdrumtr So that YOU can take our natural unprocessed drums and apply emulations of expensive hardware compressors, limiters and tube eq etc. to get such a great variety of drum sounds just like your favorite drum sounds from albums... I realize this is a more expert route and maybe not what the majority of e-Drummers want to fiddle with but... for those who are interested in great drum sounds this is a nice thing to learn. If you don't want to then the above two methods will cover you on great drum sounds out of the box anyway without processing with external plug-ins in a DAW. Don't worry.
2. The whole thing about to randomize or not is subjective but I want to provide people with some good options - especially where it really makes a difference such as in the high velocity range (where some of you are saying you'd like to hear variations of up to 10 round robining) and also in the low range of say a snare where buzz rolls just sound to machine-like unless there is a ton of variation sometimes... but it depends on the snare and from my experience it is never the same from one snare to the next!
Well, I am working on some enhancements to the current script update we have that I think can solve this so you can really control the amount of variation and a method that will also help us leave out any odd samples that you wouldn't want... because believe me the more things you randomize the more chance of an odd one popping in and ruining it. You can't just do it by some humanize algorithm either! In my opinion it must be done by ear from the developer first. It might take us a little time to add in extra alting options but I think I found a way to do it where the user has a LOT of control over it in an easy way. I will let you know.
In the meantime, as many have said, a lot of the natural sounding kits such as those in Drum Masters don't need RR as much as you might think. It depends from kit to kit. The new beta scripts we're releasing to selected users of Drum Masters (and maybe a trial version for everyone to try - well it is coming just not sure the exact date of availability) will at least do what we call "Left and Right Stick Alternating" and it switches back and forth... yes, that's two round robins per articulation. The snare could have left and right stick for the center and left and right stick for the edge. Each would have full velocity ranges with multiple switching of samples. Adding that on top of an already natural sound will get rid of any machine gun effect if there even was one in the first place. This can also be turned on or of per kit piece articulation in case you wanted an edge to ALWAYS sound exactly the same when you hit it... so that's nice.
But... I've got some things we're going to experiment to expand variation beyond that into up 12 round robins for upper velocities and up to 12 for lower velocities... I guess what you might call a "humanization" function but I think done in a different way. We're already working on that through the weekend and can maybe test it the following week after we throw around the current version with the left and right stick variation alting. I think between all of this way may just have nailed it! At least for most people's tastes. In the end it is still subjective and any person can like any kit from any developer for whatever reason and it doesn't always have to be backed up by the technical details either.
By the way, the more I was thinking about what the e-Drummer wants I came up with something that I think gets people the best of all worlds without doing anything more ridiculous than necessary. I am not a fan of just taking up computer resources and hard drive space without a benefit to the user... and I have seen many developers do it just so the spec is impressive... but there is a limit to how many instruments can always just be judged by sheer gigabyte size or the number of velocities. As a user myself I NEVER go by just the specs and it also depends on other things like how it sounds or by some of the criteria you all are mentioning.
The extra concern there is as a developer is really the fact that each person's tastes are different! Therefore there isn't one way that will please everybody... however, there is the possibility to have a system that gives people the most flexibility in each direction. For example...
1. If one happens to be a fan of the "out of the box" slamming rock processed sound - maybe even modeled after a particular drummer or band. That can be solved by us offering:
a. Natural sounds with built-in effects and kit patches. This way you have the instant effect you want but can still alter it... make it slam MORE even or dial it back.
b. Some sounds processed by particular hardware first either completely or in some partial combination... kind of like how I described how we have the upcoming Collins-style kits that have a channel with the Ball & Biscuit mic through the SSL talkback compressor recorded at Genesis studio...I know that I would want that to mix in with the other unprocessed drums so I am sure others would appreciate the convenience of having that "sound" ready to dial up authentically. Or, in Ocean Way Drums most of the drum channels are unprocessed but there are 3 room positions and two of the room positions ARE processed a little bit with compression (and also the "thwak" channels are done with a secret weapon rare vintage compressor they have at OW).
c. A little education and even some deal making on www.esoundz.com where we encourage people to get products like T-Racks http://www.esoundz.com/details.php?P...efcode=vdrumtr So that YOU can take our natural unprocessed drums and apply emulations of expensive hardware compressors, limiters and tube eq etc. to get such a great variety of drum sounds just like your favorite drum sounds from albums... I realize this is a more expert route and maybe not what the majority of e-Drummers want to fiddle with but... for those who are interested in great drum sounds this is a nice thing to learn. If you don't want to then the above two methods will cover you on great drum sounds out of the box anyway without processing with external plug-ins in a DAW. Don't worry.
2. The whole thing about to randomize or not is subjective but I want to provide people with some good options - especially where it really makes a difference such as in the high velocity range (where some of you are saying you'd like to hear variations of up to 10 round robining) and also in the low range of say a snare where buzz rolls just sound to machine-like unless there is a ton of variation sometimes... but it depends on the snare and from my experience it is never the same from one snare to the next!
Well, I am working on some enhancements to the current script update we have that I think can solve this so you can really control the amount of variation and a method that will also help us leave out any odd samples that you wouldn't want... because believe me the more things you randomize the more chance of an odd one popping in and ruining it. You can't just do it by some humanize algorithm either! In my opinion it must be done by ear from the developer first. It might take us a little time to add in extra alting options but I think I found a way to do it where the user has a LOT of control over it in an easy way. I will let you know.
In the meantime, as many have said, a lot of the natural sounding kits such as those in Drum Masters don't need RR as much as you might think. It depends from kit to kit. The new beta scripts we're releasing to selected users of Drum Masters (and maybe a trial version for everyone to try - well it is coming just not sure the exact date of availability) will at least do what we call "Left and Right Stick Alternating" and it switches back and forth... yes, that's two round robins per articulation. The snare could have left and right stick for the center and left and right stick for the edge. Each would have full velocity ranges with multiple switching of samples. Adding that on top of an already natural sound will get rid of any machine gun effect if there even was one in the first place. This can also be turned on or of per kit piece articulation in case you wanted an edge to ALWAYS sound exactly the same when you hit it... so that's nice.
But... I've got some things we're going to experiment to expand variation beyond that into up 12 round robins for upper velocities and up to 12 for lower velocities... I guess what you might call a "humanization" function but I think done in a different way. We're already working on that through the weekend and can maybe test it the following week after we throw around the current version with the left and right stick variation alting. I think between all of this way may just have nailed it! At least for most people's tastes. In the end it is still subjective and any person can like any kit from any developer for whatever reason and it doesn't always have to be backed up by the technical details either.
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- Topic Starter
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
This tech talk is great for those who like to dig deep into the why and how of this stuff. The science of it. There are a lot of sharp people who are hip to this on forums. But, the end RESULT of all of this technique is supposed to just be a great sounding playable kit... and that is something I am sure ALL of you are after if you are hanging around listening to me blab about this. That is what Sonic Reality makes for anybody interested in great sounding kits and grooves. We even do it with some of the best drummers in the world like Neil Peart, Danny Gottlieb, Jerry Marotta, Billy Cobham, Terry Bozzio, Nick D'Virgilio, Woody Woodmansey, Bob Siebenberg, Rod Morgenstein, John Blackwell, Ed Greene, Steve Gadd, Bill Bruford, Bun E Carlos and more.
We've also sampled EVERY brand of drums you can think of such as Yamaha, DW, Sonor, Pearl, Slingerland, Rogers, Noble & Cooley, Fibes, Remo, Ludwig, Gretsch, Tama, Molecules, Basix, Tempest, Pork Pie, Orange County... you name it. We sample everything. Now, a lot of these things are still coming out! If you get the Infinite Player you'll find more and more and more drum kits being available for download at a very reasonable price ($39-59 a kit is not bad!). We also sampled signature edition drums which are coming from Stewart Copeland, Dennis Chambers, Manu Katche, Dave Weckl, Peter Erskine... We also have over 200 cymbals sampled from Danny Gottlieb's personal collection to add the most CRAZY stuff to your set up like Paiste 2002, Zildjians, prototype cymbals that were never released, famous cymbals owned by jazz greats like Mel Lewis, Joe Morello...
We've also sampled EVERY brand of drums you can think of such as Yamaha, DW, Sonor, Pearl, Slingerland, Rogers, Noble & Cooley, Fibes, Remo, Ludwig, Gretsch, Tama, Molecules, Basix, Tempest, Pork Pie, Orange County... you name it. We sample everything. Now, a lot of these things are still coming out! If you get the Infinite Player you'll find more and more and more drum kits being available for download at a very reasonable price ($39-59 a kit is not bad!). We also sampled signature edition drums which are coming from Stewart Copeland, Dennis Chambers, Manu Katche, Dave Weckl, Peter Erskine... We also have over 200 cymbals sampled from Danny Gottlieb's personal collection to add the most CRAZY stuff to your set up like Paiste 2002, Zildjians, prototype cymbals that were never released, famous cymbals owned by jazz greats like Mel Lewis, Joe Morello...
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- Topic Starter
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
From a different forum (also mainly drummers asking questions):
We have two main lines of Drum software products right now from Sonic Reality. One is Ocean Way Drums which you can see all of the products in the series here: http://www.downloadablesoundz.com/oc...s&refcode=edrm and if you want to get JUST the player software and pick out kits a la carte you can do that here: http://www.downloadablesoundz.com/o2.php
Those are set up for GM, our own iMap mapping (usually for keyboard but has a lot of articulations you could try mapping to from an e-Drum kit) and special V-Drum (mainly TD20) mappings. That's for the Multichannel kits. The "DL" Stereo kits are only GM and iMap for the moment but that will change in the future... one of the surprises is that we plan to release DTX mapping in Ocean Way Drums DL as a free upgrade but imagine that is just one of the surprises. There's actually more coming.
The other Drum software product line we have is called "Drum Masters" and this series focuses on a variety of different drummer's sounds. It is a fast growing series where we're adding a lot of name drummer's kits (and grooves) as well as many "in the style of" (such as Bonham, Ringo etc.) where we sample the authentic spec kits and record them the same way they were back in the day... sometimes even with the original producers and engineers who recorded bands like The Beatles, Pink Floyd, David Bowie etc. like Ken Scott for example. A lot of this can be seen on our new http://www.sonicreality.tv A lot of footage of interest to drummers such as the upcoming Neil Peart drum library and also if you're into a Phil Collins drum sound then we got about as close as we could get... sampling a single head kit at Genesis studio with both Hugh Padgham and Nick Davis in the stone room (that's what gives it that big sound... one of the things anyway).
Speaking of Collins drum sounds, I co-wrote a song with Phil's son Simon that has Phil drumming on it. If you never heard it, since it is a somewhat progressive instrumental track (something you rarely hear from Phil these days) and very drum oriented perhaps you'd like it. You can now hear it on our myspace page: http://www.myspace.com/sonicreality it's called The Big Bang. We also did a remake of "Keep it Dark" which is up there but oddly enough I didn't use my latest drum sounds to do that one... it was an earlier drum kit I did for something else. But Big Bang is Phil's Gretsch and Simon's... Tama or Premier. I forget.
Anyway, I digressed. We're working on a vintage Collins style kit now for the early 70's sound. Plus we have Bruford and all sorts of other kits coming.
Getting back to what you'd need to play Drum Masters, it is a plug-in called "Infinite Player" which is powered by Kontakt like our Ocean Way Drums Player is. But, the Infinite Player plays Drum Masters as well as all sorts of other instruments from Sonic Reality too... it is the most expandable Kontakt Player product on the market. It's also cheap. $50 to get the player or you can get the Drum Masters/Infinite Player starter kit which isn't that much more and you get a drum kit to get going. Then you can either pick out drum kits a la carte or you can pick up the various Drum Masters bundles. All of it is here: http://www.esoundz.com/downloads.php...d&refcode=edrm Then just click the tabs to the right if you want just kits (Click Instruments) if you want bundles then click on Sound Libs. If you want a bundle such as Drum Masters Gold then click on Plug-ins and it will come WITH the Infinite Player for free so that's nice.
If you have any questions let me know. A lot of e-Drummers are just getting this one if they aren't interested in getting the grooves: http://www.esoundz.com/details.php?P...8&refcode=edrm That's the complete kits of the series as of now. That product may be available only for a limited time though. But the other popular one is Drum Masters Gold and Drum Masters Platinum - it does have the grooves but actually e-Drummers may like the fact that you can slow down the grooves of people like Danny Gottlieb, Jerry Marotta, John Blackwell etc. and figure out what they were playing easier. It can be useful in an educational way as well as for creating great drum sounds.
We have two main lines of Drum software products right now from Sonic Reality. One is Ocean Way Drums which you can see all of the products in the series here: http://www.downloadablesoundz.com/oc...s&refcode=edrm and if you want to get JUST the player software and pick out kits a la carte you can do that here: http://www.downloadablesoundz.com/o2.php
Those are set up for GM, our own iMap mapping (usually for keyboard but has a lot of articulations you could try mapping to from an e-Drum kit) and special V-Drum (mainly TD20) mappings. That's for the Multichannel kits. The "DL" Stereo kits are only GM and iMap for the moment but that will change in the future... one of the surprises is that we plan to release DTX mapping in Ocean Way Drums DL as a free upgrade but imagine that is just one of the surprises. There's actually more coming.
The other Drum software product line we have is called "Drum Masters" and this series focuses on a variety of different drummer's sounds. It is a fast growing series where we're adding a lot of name drummer's kits (and grooves) as well as many "in the style of" (such as Bonham, Ringo etc.) where we sample the authentic spec kits and record them the same way they were back in the day... sometimes even with the original producers and engineers who recorded bands like The Beatles, Pink Floyd, David Bowie etc. like Ken Scott for example. A lot of this can be seen on our new http://www.sonicreality.tv A lot of footage of interest to drummers such as the upcoming Neil Peart drum library and also if you're into a Phil Collins drum sound then we got about as close as we could get... sampling a single head kit at Genesis studio with both Hugh Padgham and Nick Davis in the stone room (that's what gives it that big sound... one of the things anyway).
Speaking of Collins drum sounds, I co-wrote a song with Phil's son Simon that has Phil drumming on it. If you never heard it, since it is a somewhat progressive instrumental track (something you rarely hear from Phil these days) and very drum oriented perhaps you'd like it. You can now hear it on our myspace page: http://www.myspace.com/sonicreality it's called The Big Bang. We also did a remake of "Keep it Dark" which is up there but oddly enough I didn't use my latest drum sounds to do that one... it was an earlier drum kit I did for something else. But Big Bang is Phil's Gretsch and Simon's... Tama or Premier. I forget.
Anyway, I digressed. We're working on a vintage Collins style kit now for the early 70's sound. Plus we have Bruford and all sorts of other kits coming.
Getting back to what you'd need to play Drum Masters, it is a plug-in called "Infinite Player" which is powered by Kontakt like our Ocean Way Drums Player is. But, the Infinite Player plays Drum Masters as well as all sorts of other instruments from Sonic Reality too... it is the most expandable Kontakt Player product on the market. It's also cheap. $50 to get the player or you can get the Drum Masters/Infinite Player starter kit which isn't that much more and you get a drum kit to get going. Then you can either pick out drum kits a la carte or you can pick up the various Drum Masters bundles. All of it is here: http://www.esoundz.com/downloads.php...d&refcode=edrm Then just click the tabs to the right if you want just kits (Click Instruments) if you want bundles then click on Sound Libs. If you want a bundle such as Drum Masters Gold then click on Plug-ins and it will come WITH the Infinite Player for free so that's nice.
If you have any questions let me know. A lot of e-Drummers are just getting this one if they aren't interested in getting the grooves: http://www.esoundz.com/details.php?P...8&refcode=edrm That's the complete kits of the series as of now. That product may be available only for a limited time though. But the other popular one is Drum Masters Gold and Drum Masters Platinum - it does have the grooves but actually e-Drummers may like the fact that you can slow down the grooves of people like Danny Gottlieb, Jerry Marotta, John Blackwell etc. and figure out what they were playing easier. It can be useful in an educational way as well as for creating great drum sounds.
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- Topic Starter
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
Wikisquids. Yeah, I was going to town answering questions... thought it would be good to archive it here.
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- Topic Starter
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
This post is about how to get a drum sound like our British Rock kit in Drum Masters. I thought it might be interesting for the WikiSquidsipedia thread here...
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Tea towels are good although we didn't use Tea Towels on the kit you linked to of ours.
One part of your drum sound is going to depend on the acoustics of the room you're in. Then also the mics and the mic pres. To really get sounds like some of the ones in Drum Masters and especially some of the sounds from the upcoming Ken Scott Collection which includes some VERY British 60's and 70's kits in the style of Ringo and also Woody Woodmansey from Bowie's Spiders from Mars then it does require some fairly expensive tube mics for the best warmth. Also Class A mic pres or channel strips. In that case the very rare Trident A range is what he used (and previously the EMI R.E.D.D. which some models used a Telefunken V72 mic pre which can be gotten... there's a company called Mercury that makes an M72 that is an exellent replica and actually there's another guy who makes a remake of the R.E.D.D. 47 mic pre which is the other mic pre used in the EMI R.E.D.D. consoles The Beatles used but it is hard to get. It has been discussed on Gear Slutz before though so do a search!).
Some of the secrets to Ken Scott's engineering are revealed in the marketing of his collection through Sonic Reality (which is my company, just so you know we do SELL these samples I am talking about). If you go to our new Sonic Reality TV: http://www.sonicreality.tv you can actually watch a Drum Masters and Ken Scott channel with various episodes being added monthly (maybe even weekly). There you'll see he uses Neumann U67s, KM54 and KM56 mics which are tube mics and somewhat rare (especially those KMs). He uses Coles 4038s which are ribbon mics (originally made by the BBC, "STC" was the original brand) as overheads so even if you JUST got those that might warm up your vintage British rock sound a lot.
The other thing about that sound though is various adventurous muting. I say adventurous because you'd be surprised at how many bizarre ways drums were bastardized for sessions back then for a very THUD sound. Anything from The Beatles four head sweater being used in Ringo's kick drum to tea towels being placed over the drum heads to various tape on the snare to even a wallet taped to the head... the heads often tuned rather low. Maybe calf skin heads. All you have to do is experiment with any of these things and the most IMPORTANT thing is to use your ears. Maybe even pull up a song with a drum sound you like and keep messing with your drum tuning (have a good drummer tune the kit), mic placement or selection and even some EQ if necessary - all until it sounds closer to what you want.
Granted that's easier said that done... there's a whole art to it. But it is certainly fun to try! OR you know you could just hire Ken Scott! That's another tip. Some of these amazing engineers do less these days but still have it. Some do, some don't. Ken does. He's incredible still to this day and despite the fact that back in the day he recorded The Beatles, Bowie, Pink Floyd, Supertramp, Elton John etc. these days he does much less because the industry has changed so much. He won't engineer anything he doesn't like but if your music is the way you described there's a chance he'd like it and you never know. You'd be surprised at what legendary engineers might work on your project if you're good and have a decent budget.
Anyway, the SHORTCUT to getting this sound is to let a sound company like Sonic Reality do it for you. Get some midi triggers and/or drum replacement software like Drum Agog and a product like Drum Masters and you can have THAT exact sound you linked to or Ken's from his upcoming library VERBATIM. It is not the same as recording it yourself but still good to have as a tool for production or even as a reference. At least you can hear the drums (even the grooves might be helpful for reference) where it is solo vs. listening to your favorite albums but in the context of music. I actually got to hear Bowie's Ziggy multitracks and listening to the drums solo you FULLY realize what is really there... THUD-like.
-----
Tea towels are good although we didn't use Tea Towels on the kit you linked to of ours.
One part of your drum sound is going to depend on the acoustics of the room you're in. Then also the mics and the mic pres. To really get sounds like some of the ones in Drum Masters and especially some of the sounds from the upcoming Ken Scott Collection which includes some VERY British 60's and 70's kits in the style of Ringo and also Woody Woodmansey from Bowie's Spiders from Mars then it does require some fairly expensive tube mics for the best warmth. Also Class A mic pres or channel strips. In that case the very rare Trident A range is what he used (and previously the EMI R.E.D.D. which some models used a Telefunken V72 mic pre which can be gotten... there's a company called Mercury that makes an M72 that is an exellent replica and actually there's another guy who makes a remake of the R.E.D.D. 47 mic pre which is the other mic pre used in the EMI R.E.D.D. consoles The Beatles used but it is hard to get. It has been discussed on Gear Slutz before though so do a search!).
Some of the secrets to Ken Scott's engineering are revealed in the marketing of his collection through Sonic Reality (which is my company, just so you know we do SELL these samples I am talking about). If you go to our new Sonic Reality TV: http://www.sonicreality.tv you can actually watch a Drum Masters and Ken Scott channel with various episodes being added monthly (maybe even weekly). There you'll see he uses Neumann U67s, KM54 and KM56 mics which are tube mics and somewhat rare (especially those KMs). He uses Coles 4038s which are ribbon mics (originally made by the BBC, "STC" was the original brand) as overheads so even if you JUST got those that might warm up your vintage British rock sound a lot.
The other thing about that sound though is various adventurous muting. I say adventurous because you'd be surprised at how many bizarre ways drums were bastardized for sessions back then for a very THUD sound. Anything from The Beatles four head sweater being used in Ringo's kick drum to tea towels being placed over the drum heads to various tape on the snare to even a wallet taped to the head... the heads often tuned rather low. Maybe calf skin heads. All you have to do is experiment with any of these things and the most IMPORTANT thing is to use your ears. Maybe even pull up a song with a drum sound you like and keep messing with your drum tuning (have a good drummer tune the kit), mic placement or selection and even some EQ if necessary - all until it sounds closer to what you want.
Granted that's easier said that done... there's a whole art to it. But it is certainly fun to try! OR you know you could just hire Ken Scott! That's another tip. Some of these amazing engineers do less these days but still have it. Some do, some don't. Ken does. He's incredible still to this day and despite the fact that back in the day he recorded The Beatles, Bowie, Pink Floyd, Supertramp, Elton John etc. these days he does much less because the industry has changed so much. He won't engineer anything he doesn't like but if your music is the way you described there's a chance he'd like it and you never know. You'd be surprised at what legendary engineers might work on your project if you're good and have a decent budget.
Anyway, the SHORTCUT to getting this sound is to let a sound company like Sonic Reality do it for you. Get some midi triggers and/or drum replacement software like Drum Agog and a product like Drum Masters and you can have THAT exact sound you linked to or Ken's from his upcoming library VERBATIM. It is not the same as recording it yourself but still good to have as a tool for production or even as a reference. At least you can hear the drums (even the grooves might be helpful for reference) where it is solo vs. listening to your favorite albums but in the context of music. I actually got to hear Bowie's Ziggy multitracks and listening to the drums solo you FULLY realize what is really there... THUD-like.
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- Topic Starter
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
You know what really determines the direction we can go? HUGE kits vs. normal size kits, this format or that format? You guys. Whatever you buy we'll have to do more of because we're not backed by any wealthy benefactor or anything. We're self funded from the sales of the previous product so, for example, if we do a Neil Peart kit in BFD2 and it sells like mad then we'll do the Collins-style Hugh Padgham kit in BFD2 and then if that sells we'll do a whole bunch more in BFD2 because it is a valid market for us to justify it financially (even if we want to do it anyway... and still might take a chance but there are limits).
Check out this thread where we encourage people to vote for which format they'd like a FREE Ocean Way Drum kit (you can vote too btw): http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 04&start=0
So, for example, getting back to the previous question of whether we can do MONDO sized kits a la Mixosaurus... if we do a few 20 gigabyte or larger sized single kits and people seem to want more of that than a wide variety of 1-2 gigabyte sized kits then we might concentrate more in that area of demand. But it is one thing to request it in a forum and another to see what people actually buy. Believe me, I am into the science of this stuff as much as a lot of you and we do a LOT fueled by just the love of it, (not considering whether the extra efforts really translate into sales or if it is just cool and fun to have done it...) but we do run a business at the end of the day and have to face reality. IS extra special effort like this supported and appreciated by the customer? Does it make a difference? We have to ask ourselves that question otherwise there's a fine line between having a smart vision for a niche business or just being fanatic and eccentric (okay, I am the second but don't tell anyone).
A lot of times we go "over the top" just because I personally want these kits for myself! In fact, that's almost always the case... and I know it was also the case with Allen Sides and Steven Miller for Ocean Way Drums. They just wanted to have a drum collection that sounded up to their standards of audio and to them it didn't exist unless they did it with no expense spared... and that's how these things can exist. But of course if you guys ever want to see an Ocean Way Drums 2 then everyone would have to buy Ocean Way Drums 1! It may be considered one of the best sounding drum products... but it still isn't as popular as others on the market. Not yet anyway. It even comes with the EZ Player Pro for the midi part of EZ/Superior now. But, believe me, when products like Ocean Way Drums DL FLY off the shelf at Guitar Center then that's what gives me the FUEL to tap on engineer's like Sides and Miller's shoulder and say "Hey, can we do some more?".
Essentially what I'd be asking them is "Please stop making hit records for a second to record MORE samples, block out Ocean Way studio even though Eric Clapton was going to book it this week and can you guys mix it too like last time? Oh and do you mind spending a lot of money again for this small niche sample industry?" That's the reality of it.
So, it ALL depends on you. The customers determine whether I can get people like Allen Sides or Hugh Padgham or Ken Scott etc. interested in doing more by you simply buying the product like mad when we do them! How's that for a sales pitch/guilt trip combo? Haha. Just kidding there. But I think most of you understand what I mean. We are probably more eccentric than other sound companies... our philosophy is "Sample Everything". Who else samples all of these drums AND does vintage instruments, synths, orchestral, world, vocal and sound effects? We're certifiably nuts for your benefit. So by all means take advantage of it!
Check out this thread where we encourage people to vote for which format they'd like a FREE Ocean Way Drum kit (you can vote too btw): http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 04&start=0
So, for example, getting back to the previous question of whether we can do MONDO sized kits a la Mixosaurus... if we do a few 20 gigabyte or larger sized single kits and people seem to want more of that than a wide variety of 1-2 gigabyte sized kits then we might concentrate more in that area of demand. But it is one thing to request it in a forum and another to see what people actually buy. Believe me, I am into the science of this stuff as much as a lot of you and we do a LOT fueled by just the love of it, (not considering whether the extra efforts really translate into sales or if it is just cool and fun to have done it...) but we do run a business at the end of the day and have to face reality. IS extra special effort like this supported and appreciated by the customer? Does it make a difference? We have to ask ourselves that question otherwise there's a fine line between having a smart vision for a niche business or just being fanatic and eccentric (okay, I am the second but don't tell anyone).
A lot of times we go "over the top" just because I personally want these kits for myself! In fact, that's almost always the case... and I know it was also the case with Allen Sides and Steven Miller for Ocean Way Drums. They just wanted to have a drum collection that sounded up to their standards of audio and to them it didn't exist unless they did it with no expense spared... and that's how these things can exist. But of course if you guys ever want to see an Ocean Way Drums 2 then everyone would have to buy Ocean Way Drums 1! It may be considered one of the best sounding drum products... but it still isn't as popular as others on the market. Not yet anyway. It even comes with the EZ Player Pro for the midi part of EZ/Superior now. But, believe me, when products like Ocean Way Drums DL FLY off the shelf at Guitar Center then that's what gives me the FUEL to tap on engineer's like Sides and Miller's shoulder and say "Hey, can we do some more?".
Essentially what I'd be asking them is "Please stop making hit records for a second to record MORE samples, block out Ocean Way studio even though Eric Clapton was going to book it this week and can you guys mix it too like last time? Oh and do you mind spending a lot of money again for this small niche sample industry?" That's the reality of it.
So, it ALL depends on you. The customers determine whether I can get people like Allen Sides or Hugh Padgham or Ken Scott etc. interested in doing more by you simply buying the product like mad when we do them! How's that for a sales pitch/guilt trip combo? Haha. Just kidding there. But I think most of you understand what I mean. We are probably more eccentric than other sound companies... our philosophy is "Sample Everything". Who else samples all of these drums AND does vintage instruments, synths, orchestral, world, vocal and sound effects? We're certifiably nuts for your benefit. So by all means take advantage of it!
Last edited by Squids on Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- Topic Starter
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
That was part two of an answer as to whether we could do large sized kits a la Mixosaurus. Also questions specifically about hi hat articulations. He is the part one of that answer:
We have 10 different articulations for the hi hat. But not all of them can be used at the same time from a hi hat controller necessarily... depends on how many midi notes the controller can send. But available to you to control are foot, foot open, closed tip, closed edge, medium closed to open tip or edge, a little more open and/or choke, a tip open (or swishy open) and what we call a "Bonham style" open (I am sure there is a better technical term) but it is an open where the hats are sizzling/smashing, then there's an alternate closed hit with a left stick position or closer to the bell sound and then another extra open (usually another Bonham style clashing hats open).
This is what we currently have but we may be experimenting with offering even more. We're not a company that does 1,000 hits of a tom just to outdo someone else with the number spec. We try to take up resources for a specific reason that we feel will benefit the user. Each time we keep adding in more and more hits, velocities, variations it DOES bring the size of the kit up so we also consider that too... I think the ideal kit size is around 1-2 gigabytes. But, kits like this Neil Peart one are 10 times that (we'll have to do a light version then that is easily downloadable and not to crazy on people's computer set ups... but then again if you want the Mix-o-saurus large sized stuff then we will have some of that too).
We have 10 different articulations for the hi hat. But not all of them can be used at the same time from a hi hat controller necessarily... depends on how many midi notes the controller can send. But available to you to control are foot, foot open, closed tip, closed edge, medium closed to open tip or edge, a little more open and/or choke, a tip open (or swishy open) and what we call a "Bonham style" open (I am sure there is a better technical term) but it is an open where the hats are sizzling/smashing, then there's an alternate closed hit with a left stick position or closer to the bell sound and then another extra open (usually another Bonham style clashing hats open).
This is what we currently have but we may be experimenting with offering even more. We're not a company that does 1,000 hits of a tom just to outdo someone else with the number spec. We try to take up resources for a specific reason that we feel will benefit the user. Each time we keep adding in more and more hits, velocities, variations it DOES bring the size of the kit up so we also consider that too... I think the ideal kit size is around 1-2 gigabytes. But, kits like this Neil Peart one are 10 times that (we'll have to do a light version then that is easily downloadable and not to crazy on people's computer set ups... but then again if you want the Mix-o-saurus large sized stuff then we will have some of that too).
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- Topic Starter
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
This post is from another forum about someone bringing up the topic of wanting different types of sounds from Ocean Way Drums in the future. This is was my unedited response (I actually edited my original response so it wasn't a book... but since this is the Squidsipedia thread it can live here).
Ocean Way Drums has its own sound. Each of the snares for instance does sound like they were recorded by the same people in the same studio room. The snares and full kits also each have consistent mixes from dry to ambient. That's by design. The snares can easily be interchanged between kits nicely because of that cohesiveness as well. These snares and natural acoustic kits are also the building blocks to get a massive amount of drum sounds for your productions by simply using the effects in your DAW or studio. They are natural acoustic kits so a lot of what you may be talking about may be down to how it is processed by the user. Try running it through T-Racks 3 Deluxe plug-ins or a UAD card or Waves etc. and you will unleash the power of having natural sounding drum kits and snares such as these. They sound great out of the box but are more diverse depending on what you do with it... just like if you recorded drums at a studio like Ocean Way's Studio B... then you would mix it according to your song however you wanted to. These kits can be produced with effects to fit into a wide variety of genres.
That said, what some people may like is the sound of other studios, particular brand kits or vintage kits, particular kits that belong to famous drummers perhaps, alternate stick types or diffrent approaches to the miking and production. Flavors of drums or any other instrument can depend on a lot of factors and Sonic Reality is diverse to try to cover quite a few offerings from different sources.
_________
Ocean Way Drums isn't the only thing we have. Not every drum request has to come through this line of products... nor will it. We can't for instance ask Allen Sides to also record drums in the style of another producer/engineer... we'd just get THAT producer/engineer if we wanted that sound. For Ocean Way Drums we have the sound of Allen Side's tastes. He is the owner of Ocean Way Recording and a brilliant engineer who has mixed over 750 albums. What you hear in Ocean Way Drums is HIS sound. He and Steven Miller. It is a particularly "hi fi" type of drum sound that they go for and a somewhat purist approach. What they did that I appreciate is get a drum sound that works right out of the box yet is still extremely flexible to do your OWN mixes and productions with it. That to me is the main value of Ocean Way Drums... besides the way it sounds in iMap for me personally as a keyboard drummer. (the next frontier I would like to explore for OWD is all sorts of e-Drummer support so it is as good as iMap is for the keyboard).
Anyway, the idea is that when you want THAT sound you reach for Ocean Way Drums. When you want ANOTHER sound that it isn't... we suggest you reach for something else. There are a lot of drum sounds from various companies. Just from Sonic Reality alone we have the Drum Masters series and more coming like Ken Scott Collection (with Cobham, Bozzio, Morgenstein...), Neil Peart Drums, Hugh Padgham Drums recorded at Genesis' studio, Heavy Metal Drums, Progressive Rock Drums, Weird Avant Garde Drums... that's what we do! We sample instruments of all kinds and one of our favorite things has always been sampling drums (we've been doing it longer than most with "Interactive Drums" releaed in 1997!). But, anyway, each library has its own sonic flavor to it due to where it was recorded, how, why, what etc. That's why I appreciate all of the products from different companies because they've each capture a different kind of sound from the next.
I think some people get confused with Ocean Way Drums being a plug-in platform like say Superior 2 or BFD... it isn't. It is a sample collection that uses Native Instruments' KONTAKT player plug-in as its means to be sold as a plug-in (just like many other sound companies do). We have a lot of sounds for Kontakt format. So really if you have requests for particular drum sounds I think asking a sound company like Sonic Reality to do them for Kontakt (or for that matter for BFD or any other platform you use) is a great idea. I love to hear requests for particular sounds people are looking for and we'll find the appropriate engineer, kits and everything else to make it happen. We may not always have the luxury to block out a month at Ocean Way to do it... but we an usually find a reasonable way to produce more high quality sounds of all types.
Ocean Way Drums has its own sound. Each of the snares for instance does sound like they were recorded by the same people in the same studio room. The snares and full kits also each have consistent mixes from dry to ambient. That's by design. The snares can easily be interchanged between kits nicely because of that cohesiveness as well. These snares and natural acoustic kits are also the building blocks to get a massive amount of drum sounds for your productions by simply using the effects in your DAW or studio. They are natural acoustic kits so a lot of what you may be talking about may be down to how it is processed by the user. Try running it through T-Racks 3 Deluxe plug-ins or a UAD card or Waves etc. and you will unleash the power of having natural sounding drum kits and snares such as these. They sound great out of the box but are more diverse depending on what you do with it... just like if you recorded drums at a studio like Ocean Way's Studio B... then you would mix it according to your song however you wanted to. These kits can be produced with effects to fit into a wide variety of genres.
That said, what some people may like is the sound of other studios, particular brand kits or vintage kits, particular kits that belong to famous drummers perhaps, alternate stick types or diffrent approaches to the miking and production. Flavors of drums or any other instrument can depend on a lot of factors and Sonic Reality is diverse to try to cover quite a few offerings from different sources.
_________
Ocean Way Drums isn't the only thing we have. Not every drum request has to come through this line of products... nor will it. We can't for instance ask Allen Sides to also record drums in the style of another producer/engineer... we'd just get THAT producer/engineer if we wanted that sound. For Ocean Way Drums we have the sound of Allen Side's tastes. He is the owner of Ocean Way Recording and a brilliant engineer who has mixed over 750 albums. What you hear in Ocean Way Drums is HIS sound. He and Steven Miller. It is a particularly "hi fi" type of drum sound that they go for and a somewhat purist approach. What they did that I appreciate is get a drum sound that works right out of the box yet is still extremely flexible to do your OWN mixes and productions with it. That to me is the main value of Ocean Way Drums... besides the way it sounds in iMap for me personally as a keyboard drummer. (the next frontier I would like to explore for OWD is all sorts of e-Drummer support so it is as good as iMap is for the keyboard).
Anyway, the idea is that when you want THAT sound you reach for Ocean Way Drums. When you want ANOTHER sound that it isn't... we suggest you reach for something else. There are a lot of drum sounds from various companies. Just from Sonic Reality alone we have the Drum Masters series and more coming like Ken Scott Collection (with Cobham, Bozzio, Morgenstein...), Neil Peart Drums, Hugh Padgham Drums recorded at Genesis' studio, Heavy Metal Drums, Progressive Rock Drums, Weird Avant Garde Drums... that's what we do! We sample instruments of all kinds and one of our favorite things has always been sampling drums (we've been doing it longer than most with "Interactive Drums" releaed in 1997!). But, anyway, each library has its own sonic flavor to it due to where it was recorded, how, why, what etc. That's why I appreciate all of the products from different companies because they've each capture a different kind of sound from the next.
I think some people get confused with Ocean Way Drums being a plug-in platform like say Superior 2 or BFD... it isn't. It is a sample collection that uses Native Instruments' KONTAKT player plug-in as its means to be sold as a plug-in (just like many other sound companies do). We have a lot of sounds for Kontakt format. So really if you have requests for particular drum sounds I think asking a sound company like Sonic Reality to do them for Kontakt (or for that matter for BFD or any other platform you use) is a great idea. I love to hear requests for particular sounds people are looking for and we'll find the appropriate engineer, kits and everything else to make it happen. We may not always have the luxury to block out a month at Ocean Way to do it... but we an usually find a reasonable way to produce more high quality sounds of all types.
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- Topic Starter
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
Here is a response to someone who was critical that we didn't have V-Drum or e-Drum maps in Ocean Way Drums DL Edition (even though the DL edition was 1/5 the price of OWD Gold that does have V-Drum maps). Although the DL Edition hasn't been out that long and we've had plans to add V-Drum/E-Drum maps to it, particularly if it was a hot seller. Ironically we sell more Ocean Way Drums Gold and Platinum! But I think people are still learning that there even is a Silver for only $399 and a DL Stereo Edition for only $199. The interesting thing about the critical post and my response is the notion that there are more "e-Drummers" who are vocal about their desire for features like round robin. It is a fun feature for sure. Today I even tried round robin for the first time on an iMap kit (you all may be able to try that yourself perhaps tomorrow? Almost ready for some free public beta patches to be shared for Drum Masters 1.5) and even though iMap doesn't really NEED round robin it was fun for the additional "auto variation" and was particularly handy for open hi hats. However, from an e-Drum pad set up there's no question the new round robin groups in our new scripts are going to be useful.
Anyway here was my response to a light but reasonable complaint. He did think it didn't seem like much to make these updates though... and that is a bit assumption as you will see if you dare read on with the Squids Mega Posts (btw if you've been reading them feel free to say so! I am curious if you guys can handle the Squidsipedia or not). My response:
Doesn't seem like much? Haha. Well, keep in mind this isn't the only thing we do. It took months just to get the scripts done for the other drum and instrument products we're doing in Kontakt. From there it will be easier to take some of that work and apply it to Ocean Way Drums - as long as we get the okay from Ocean Way (we don't operate alone on that product).
Sometimes you guys make it sound like the majority of people buying drum plug-ins are drummers playing from an e-kit. But, in reality I don't think that's the case. When we first made this product it was designed for playing mainly from the keyboard which is how most producers do it (and that's how I do it). The iMap is more advanced playing from the keyboard than all of the products I've ever played on the market. I personally couldn't do what I do on the keyboard "finger drumming" the same way with products like Superior or BFD - as good as those products may be! They don't have left and right stick snare rolls, separate ghost notes and the particular articulations spread across the keyboard in an ergonomic way like we do when doing iMap. So, even when we did the V-Drum TD20 mapping for the original OWD Gold and Platinum that was more of an "icing on the cake" feature than a "Let's go for the e-Drummer market".
But, I will admit that from my experience on forums there seems to be a LOT of interest in Ocean Way Drums from e-Drummers... particularly because people really like the sound and fidelity but from an e-Drummer's perspective round robin is a must so this is a popular request (especially lately). Other software manufacturers have been catering to this demand and so are we. Kontakt 3.5 only JUST came out. New scripts for Drum Masters are only just coming out. I am sure there will be some for Ocean Way too.
I wouldn't say that it was necessarily an oversight to not have had e-Drum specific maps for the new stereo DL edition but maybe we underestimated the demand there is from e-Drummers. There's also people that use GM who would like round robin too though. Well the new scripts we have been working on can do all of that so first we'll try it out with Drum Masters and if that goes well then it will make its way over to Ocean Way Drums perhaps. We're still working on it and tweaking to get improvements in the way it works.
Anyway, I think we've been pretty cool about making updates FREE (including sample updates which is rarely free from companies). Sure it can take a while but I know we're not the only ones... in fact I think ALL soundware companies in the drum market were significantly late with expected updates. I know why that is too! What may SEEM to others as "something that doesn't take much" is usually NOT the case when dealing with: thousands of samples, encoded patches, company's and people's schedules, budgets, product release schedules, marketing, distribution, sales, web sites, trade shows, literature, newsletters, videos, dealers, regional world wide sales... and in the case of the Ocean Way guys whatever we do has to fit in timewise between them running one of the top studios in the world (with very demanding clientele) and mixing albums from major artists! Considering all of that it is amazing we can get any of this done. But we do. You know why? Because I am the kind of guy who types this to you at 1 am while I am working on sounds. We're into it heavily and our customers benefit from that labor of love. Okay, yes one may have to be patient to get the latest up to date features... don't you have to wait from every company? But when we deliver it is usually quite fair and really nice post purchase additional value... like inexpensive or free updates like we often do at Sonic Reality.
So hang in there! We can address those things in an update. I do appreciate the feedback. No need to be negative though IMO. Each person has different ways of using it. For my needs Ocean Way Drums is STELLAR and works like a charm as it does for MANY people making music with it (it also worked quite well for the people that gave it awards and top ratings in reviews). I have never had ANY machine gun effects playing from the keyboard using iMap. It is designed to be used with expert deliberate control of the alting of articulations. For me that is even better than random things happening out of my control. Personal taste as keyboardist/programmer. But I do own some e-Drum kits and like to pretend I am a drummer sometimes on them... I agree round robin is a must when you have limited numbers of note triggers like that. I will do my best to make that happen as quickly as possible.
Anyway here was my response to a light but reasonable complaint. He did think it didn't seem like much to make these updates though... and that is a bit assumption as you will see if you dare read on with the Squids Mega Posts (btw if you've been reading them feel free to say so! I am curious if you guys can handle the Squidsipedia or not). My response:
Doesn't seem like much? Haha. Well, keep in mind this isn't the only thing we do. It took months just to get the scripts done for the other drum and instrument products we're doing in Kontakt. From there it will be easier to take some of that work and apply it to Ocean Way Drums - as long as we get the okay from Ocean Way (we don't operate alone on that product).
Sometimes you guys make it sound like the majority of people buying drum plug-ins are drummers playing from an e-kit. But, in reality I don't think that's the case. When we first made this product it was designed for playing mainly from the keyboard which is how most producers do it (and that's how I do it). The iMap is more advanced playing from the keyboard than all of the products I've ever played on the market. I personally couldn't do what I do on the keyboard "finger drumming" the same way with products like Superior or BFD - as good as those products may be! They don't have left and right stick snare rolls, separate ghost notes and the particular articulations spread across the keyboard in an ergonomic way like we do when doing iMap. So, even when we did the V-Drum TD20 mapping for the original OWD Gold and Platinum that was more of an "icing on the cake" feature than a "Let's go for the e-Drummer market".
But, I will admit that from my experience on forums there seems to be a LOT of interest in Ocean Way Drums from e-Drummers... particularly because people really like the sound and fidelity but from an e-Drummer's perspective round robin is a must so this is a popular request (especially lately). Other software manufacturers have been catering to this demand and so are we. Kontakt 3.5 only JUST came out. New scripts for Drum Masters are only just coming out. I am sure there will be some for Ocean Way too.
I wouldn't say that it was necessarily an oversight to not have had e-Drum specific maps for the new stereo DL edition but maybe we underestimated the demand there is from e-Drummers. There's also people that use GM who would like round robin too though. Well the new scripts we have been working on can do all of that so first we'll try it out with Drum Masters and if that goes well then it will make its way over to Ocean Way Drums perhaps. We're still working on it and tweaking to get improvements in the way it works.
Anyway, I think we've been pretty cool about making updates FREE (including sample updates which is rarely free from companies). Sure it can take a while but I know we're not the only ones... in fact I think ALL soundware companies in the drum market were significantly late with expected updates. I know why that is too! What may SEEM to others as "something that doesn't take much" is usually NOT the case when dealing with: thousands of samples, encoded patches, company's and people's schedules, budgets, product release schedules, marketing, distribution, sales, web sites, trade shows, literature, newsletters, videos, dealers, regional world wide sales... and in the case of the Ocean Way guys whatever we do has to fit in timewise between them running one of the top studios in the world (with very demanding clientele) and mixing albums from major artists! Considering all of that it is amazing we can get any of this done. But we do. You know why? Because I am the kind of guy who types this to you at 1 am while I am working on sounds. We're into it heavily and our customers benefit from that labor of love. Okay, yes one may have to be patient to get the latest up to date features... don't you have to wait from every company? But when we deliver it is usually quite fair and really nice post purchase additional value... like inexpensive or free updates like we often do at Sonic Reality.
So hang in there! We can address those things in an update. I do appreciate the feedback. No need to be negative though IMO. Each person has different ways of using it. For my needs Ocean Way Drums is STELLAR and works like a charm as it does for MANY people making music with it (it also worked quite well for the people that gave it awards and top ratings in reviews). I have never had ANY machine gun effects playing from the keyboard using iMap. It is designed to be used with expert deliberate control of the alting of articulations. For me that is even better than random things happening out of my control. Personal taste as keyboardist/programmer. But I do own some e-Drum kits and like to pretend I am a drummer sometimes on them... I agree round robin is a must when you have limited numbers of note triggers like that. I will do my best to make that happen as quickly as possible.
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- Topic Starter
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
On the subject of how to get realism... which methods are better? Sampling tons of velocities of less positions of the drum or spreading it out amongst left and right stick variations and multiple positions/aritculations of the drum...
Again taken from another forum (compiled from more than one post if it reads a little weird I took out the other's comments I was replying to):
There IS an art and science to the method of doing any of this. By grabbing left and right stick variations of multiple positions and articulations of the drum and also letting the dynamic features and amp envelopes of the software play a part in the performance of it the combination of those techniques and the way it is laid out for the performing instrument on top of the sonics of the recording all contribute to what makes something sound "real". The realism in the end also depends on the person using it and what expression they are able to get out of it. That can be limited by their playing ability or technically by what controller they are using or other factors like what is mapped.
A lot of velocity layers can be good for realism. But that's certainly not the only thing that makes a drum library sound realistic and I would argue that there are other nuances of the kit like multiple positions and articulations that are likely to contribute more to achieve that goal of an expressive realistic sounding kit. In theory anyway. In the end it depends on a case by case basis on that and more.
If you want to seriously talk about realism then of course a lot of factors have to come into play. I'll be the first to admit that round robin kits play more realistically from something like a DTX kit or various V-Drum models that one might have. BFD has the ability to alternate samples using its velocities and that is why it makes sense in that format to load it up with velocities for more variation. Remember I am also doing BFD support too and we're doing it that way too... maybe not going too far beyond 60 velocities or so which to me is plenty but still... it makes sense for that format. We may also do BFD imap kits in which case that would be split up across the keyboard which is how some keyboard players prefer it - where you can deliberately alt with your fingers and rely on some keys not to randomize. In fact, a lot of times that too is desired... the random alting thing is most effective when playing fast succcessive hits but sometimes you WANT a drum to be consistent too when you are just playing a straight beat... many producers have done drum replacement even going back to old Steely Dan records with that Wendell computer or Clearmountain's mixes with that TC2290 method of sample replacement back in the A&M Studios days (a good friend of mine assisted on a bunch of those sessions back then). So, I am personally into offering both randomization and consistent so there are options for the user.
Anyway, that's talking about drum controllers. I already mentioned the realism iMap offers for keyboard programming. But, the MOST realistic simulation of all for emulating a live drum track is our Drum Masters series. I can say that so boldly and definitively because of how it was done. It combines the only multi-track playable drum kits AND audio time-aligned rex grooves from the real drummers into one plug-in. So for realism it doesn't get any more real than REAL. All of these infinite velocities, nuances of the kit timbres, every position of the drum a drummer might hit with any part of the stick, any way the room is resonating and any part of the kit rattling... all captured with great drummer's expert feel and style to use along with the midi playable kit to create the closest thing there is to a real live drum session.
Granted that may not be of interest to e-Drummers per se (although you e-Drummers might be delighted to slow down a Billy Cobham Mahavishnu drum track to hear what he was playing without the slow down artifacts... our multitrack rex grooves preserve the pitch and let you slow it down AND still mix the mics).
But, again, it's not like we did all that because we wanted to outdo any other sound developer. I don't even pay attention to that! I just think about what I'd want as a musician myself. I'd want a virtual session with the best drummers in the world! And best engineers too if possible and the sound of the best studios as well if possible... that is why I appreciate Andy Johns sample libraries and Lost NY Studio sessions or anything of that nature... right up my alley. And of course no one denies that Ocean Way Recording is one of the best sounding studios in the world. That doesn't have to be proven whatsoever. No other studio in the world has won so many TEC awards and very few have had so many hit records come out of one complex... To think that people can buy a taste of that world class sound in a box for $199 right now with the Ocean Way Drums DL Edition is just amazing.
I may have a different philosophy on how to make drum products from all of the others. I will gladly talk about my philosophy as you can see! I am proud of our approach where it hits the nail on the head and fully admit when it misses. Without revealing all our plans, generally we work hard to update our products to add more features that matter to more people. But the product starts off mostly to my tastes I admit. I like iMap and real audio grooves obviously. In fact, my FAVORITE thing is still a real live drummer in the studio and no samples... but one can't always do that and have every type of sound so immediate like this. I do both even with as many samples as I have. I've got 8 drum kits in my studio ready to be miked any time I want to jam with a real live human drummer.
The funny thing is I've only sampled 2 out of those 8 and the other 6 are killer... all in due time. I've been sampling so many kits that belong to the drummers themselves because they're so darned good and I want them all. Like 200+ of Danny Gottlieb's cymbal collection which is coming to BFD and Kontakt soon... so much more. We have drums coming out of our ears!
Again taken from another forum (compiled from more than one post if it reads a little weird I took out the other's comments I was replying to):
There IS an art and science to the method of doing any of this. By grabbing left and right stick variations of multiple positions and articulations of the drum and also letting the dynamic features and amp envelopes of the software play a part in the performance of it the combination of those techniques and the way it is laid out for the performing instrument on top of the sonics of the recording all contribute to what makes something sound "real". The realism in the end also depends on the person using it and what expression they are able to get out of it. That can be limited by their playing ability or technically by what controller they are using or other factors like what is mapped.
A lot of velocity layers can be good for realism. But that's certainly not the only thing that makes a drum library sound realistic and I would argue that there are other nuances of the kit like multiple positions and articulations that are likely to contribute more to achieve that goal of an expressive realistic sounding kit. In theory anyway. In the end it depends on a case by case basis on that and more.
If you want to seriously talk about realism then of course a lot of factors have to come into play. I'll be the first to admit that round robin kits play more realistically from something like a DTX kit or various V-Drum models that one might have. BFD has the ability to alternate samples using its velocities and that is why it makes sense in that format to load it up with velocities for more variation. Remember I am also doing BFD support too and we're doing it that way too... maybe not going too far beyond 60 velocities or so which to me is plenty but still... it makes sense for that format. We may also do BFD imap kits in which case that would be split up across the keyboard which is how some keyboard players prefer it - where you can deliberately alt with your fingers and rely on some keys not to randomize. In fact, a lot of times that too is desired... the random alting thing is most effective when playing fast succcessive hits but sometimes you WANT a drum to be consistent too when you are just playing a straight beat... many producers have done drum replacement even going back to old Steely Dan records with that Wendell computer or Clearmountain's mixes with that TC2290 method of sample replacement back in the A&M Studios days (a good friend of mine assisted on a bunch of those sessions back then). So, I am personally into offering both randomization and consistent so there are options for the user.
Anyway, that's talking about drum controllers. I already mentioned the realism iMap offers for keyboard programming. But, the MOST realistic simulation of all for emulating a live drum track is our Drum Masters series. I can say that so boldly and definitively because of how it was done. It combines the only multi-track playable drum kits AND audio time-aligned rex grooves from the real drummers into one plug-in. So for realism it doesn't get any more real than REAL. All of these infinite velocities, nuances of the kit timbres, every position of the drum a drummer might hit with any part of the stick, any way the room is resonating and any part of the kit rattling... all captured with great drummer's expert feel and style to use along with the midi playable kit to create the closest thing there is to a real live drum session.
Granted that may not be of interest to e-Drummers per se (although you e-Drummers might be delighted to slow down a Billy Cobham Mahavishnu drum track to hear what he was playing without the slow down artifacts... our multitrack rex grooves preserve the pitch and let you slow it down AND still mix the mics).
But, again, it's not like we did all that because we wanted to outdo any other sound developer. I don't even pay attention to that! I just think about what I'd want as a musician myself. I'd want a virtual session with the best drummers in the world! And best engineers too if possible and the sound of the best studios as well if possible... that is why I appreciate Andy Johns sample libraries and Lost NY Studio sessions or anything of that nature... right up my alley. And of course no one denies that Ocean Way Recording is one of the best sounding studios in the world. That doesn't have to be proven whatsoever. No other studio in the world has won so many TEC awards and very few have had so many hit records come out of one complex... To think that people can buy a taste of that world class sound in a box for $199 right now with the Ocean Way Drums DL Edition is just amazing.
I may have a different philosophy on how to make drum products from all of the others. I will gladly talk about my philosophy as you can see! I am proud of our approach where it hits the nail on the head and fully admit when it misses. Without revealing all our plans, generally we work hard to update our products to add more features that matter to more people. But the product starts off mostly to my tastes I admit. I like iMap and real audio grooves obviously. In fact, my FAVORITE thing is still a real live drummer in the studio and no samples... but one can't always do that and have every type of sound so immediate like this. I do both even with as many samples as I have. I've got 8 drum kits in my studio ready to be miked any time I want to jam with a real live human drummer.
The funny thing is I've only sampled 2 out of those 8 and the other 6 are killer... all in due time. I've been sampling so many kits that belong to the drummers themselves because they're so darned good and I want them all. Like 200+ of Danny Gottlieb's cymbal collection which is coming to BFD and Kontakt soon... so much more. We have drums coming out of our ears!