Using chords with notes that doesn't belong to the scale

[dark_virus]

I'm very new to all this music theory thing. I'm reading tons of topics on this forum, and some other resources too.

Supposing I'm working on the key of C major, may I use (following the general musical theory):

this: C, E, Gb (C flattened 5th according looknohands.com)

or this: C, E, G#, B (Cmaj7+5 according looknohands.com)?

The main point is: since Gb and G# aren't part of the C major scale, these notes have a good chance of clashing with others, right? So, is there some tip on how to use them or is it better to avoid them?

Thanks.

[Ogg Vorbis]

I'm very new to all this music theory thing. I'm reading tons of topics on this forum, and some other resources too.

Supposing I'm working on the key of C major, may I use (following the general musical theory):

this: C, E, Gb (C flattened 5th according looknohands.com)

or this: C, E, G#, B (Cmaj7+5 according looknohands.com)?

The main point is: since Gb and G# aren't part of the C major scale, these notes have a good chance of clashing with others, right? So, is there some tip on how to use them or is it better to avoid them?

Thanks.

There are four reasons I can think of to use chromatic alterations (non-scale tones).

One is melodically where the melodic logic of your main tune or a supporting tune drives the use of a non-scale tones.

Two is voice-leading, where you are using rich harmonies that resolve a biting harmony smoothly and logically into a more relaxed sounding harmony. This is done in jazz and a lot of pop too.

Three is that you are establishing a temporary new key center. For example, if you want to have some variety and "modulate" to A minor, you will see how a G# helps you establish that.

Four is just straight out coloring. "Chromatic" means "color" and you can use non-scale tones because, well, you simply like what that does to the color of the harmony. You'll find that a G# against a C Maj chord might work perfectly because it happens to land on a lyric or a certain moment in the phrase that just begs it to be that way.

Hope that helps.

[mbncp]

If you play a C-5 (C-E-Gb) chord you will notice that it doesnt sound to great with an F note and you will mostly switch to Gb instead of F in the melody or phrases. But then you're not in C Major anymore but G Major, C Lydian or whatever, where a C major chord will fit as well.

[ecsmix]

Good questions I was wondering that myself.

For those mortals that doesn't have a very good ear, to find out those chords /notes that work well with eachother.
Sometimes I know the scale, notes, chords that I use but sometimes I forget that the preset I am using has a +7 on one oscilator, and then clash happens but I can't hear. I always have to send to some musician friend to listen and help me out.

I would like to know if somebody already wrote a book about it or a tutorial about those best combinations.
Just like Ogg explained how and why it works, stuff like that for the beginner.
Just like the e-book from Gary Ewer about strong and fragile chord progressions and stuff, he explains how and why.
Tips like that.
Thanks.

[psenior]

Cmaj7#5 naturally occurs in the A melodic minor scale, so it would work fine there. Now, if you were to play a D in the bass over your Cmaj7#5 chord, you would get a very pretty altered dominant chord, very similar to the the first chord you hear in Dizzy Gillespie's "Night in Tunisia." Since Cmaj7#5 has a augmented triad in it (C+), you can probably play whole tone scale or chord patterns over it as well.

Over major scales and chords, these altered notes will clash. When playing over dominant scales and chords, you can play just about any note you want and get away with it, as long as you are clever.

[ecsmix]

Music is been there forever, no one ever wrote a book or something about the combinations that work?

I am sorry I am not clever about those combinations, I feel safe using some stuff already tested that works..lol

[psenior]

There are lots of music books, but most of them are bad (i.e. confusing). Are you asking for a book with all the possible combinations of polychords? The closest thing I have seen to that is "Modern Jazz Piano: A Study in Harmony & Improvisation" by Brian Waite. I actually referred to this book briefly before answering the original poster's question. But I don't think this book is going to give you the answers you seek. The truth is, there are so many combinations, it would be impractical to write them all down. Slonimsky's "Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns" might be another book along the lines of what you are talking about, as well, but I really wouldn't suggest it unless you are a very good sight reader and like practicing lots of weird musical exercises on your instrument for hours and hours endlessly.

Music is part art and part craft. In order to stay safe, you have to pick the musical style you feel comfortable in, and play only in the keys and chords you feel comfortable in, and never change anything. Only time I play it safe is when playing piano at church.

[ecsmix]

Hey psenior thanks for you answer.
I believe I already saw in a friends house some of those...I will take a look.

It would be a good book, the well tested combinations in well know musics, it should have some combinations the majority already uses and works good.
I know some books who gives you some good chord combinations, progressions that works very good, ready to use!! Stuff like that.

I can't read music, I'd rather in letters like you guys discuss in foruns and usually those books aren't like this.

[Ogg Vorbis]

Music is been there forever, no one ever wrote a book or something about the combinations that work?

Problem is, what "works" depends on context. Musical language is so context specific that you can't write a book that gives you a "formula" or "recipe" that you can simply apply.

It would be like buying a step-by-step instruction book on lovemaking complete with maps and charts.

[wrench45us]

the 4 pronged answer above covers the theory

and leads to what occurs in practice
ususally it is voice leading towards resolution or an implied key change that may or may not happen

you can think of these color chords as one does diminished chords as a sort of rotary switch that facilitate taking off in another direction or just resolve back to its origon


One could consider this as similar to a lead or melody note that doesn't fit in the scale
there may be some texts on playing inside or playing outside that could cover this territory

[Orphoneus]

It would be a good book, the well tested combinations in well know musics, it should have some combinations the majority already uses and works good.
I know some books who gives you some good chord combinations, progressions that works very good, ready to use!! Stuff like that.

Well, there are books on harmony (= chords) like Aldwell & Schachter, but you probably don't want that one. It's very much dependent on style, too; jazz harmony is different from classical one.

I can't read music, I'd rather in letters like you guys discuss in forums and usually those books aren't like this.

Why not learn to read music notation? Seriously, it's a great investment; every lead sheet has something new to teach you about chords and melody. Like a song? Grab the lead sheet and play along with your guitar / keyboard or transcribe it into your sequencer and play with the results.

[jancivil]

it is all context. great answers here btw


concretely what these two chords would tend to do is take you to new places, or give you a color which departs from regular C major; like so:

C with a flat five likes to go to 'F'. Voice leading-wise, the Gb likes F as a resting point. Along with the strong move of C to F, rising fourth, it's dominant to tonic. Use the tone Bb with the same triad, belongs to F, functions as V7 b5 in that key.

C with a sharp five likes to lead to other places too, A minor which has been said, and, to F, G# liking A which is the third of F. It can be a V +5 in F, it can be a substitute for E, the dominant of A (minor). Try it with E in the bass.

Or, you can look at Gb as F# and it's a aharp four over a tonic, and doesn't have to go anywhere but is a characteristic of lydian mode, for one example.

or put the C + 5 chord over an A bass, for instance, and it doesn't have to do anything but give you that color.

here's another example of that: stairway to heaven beginning passage: A minor, A minor/G# bass A minor G/bass etc..

and you can note the chromatic descent of that line takes you to D/F# bass, by 'voice leading'.

[Tony Ostinato]

thing is as soon as you say something wont work someone comes along and makes it work.

catholic church tried to ban the tritone and look what happened, its EVERYWHERE!

[dark_virus]

Thank you for all the answers.

Ogg Vorbis: your answer was very comprehensive, and helped a lot! If I understand correctly, using these "chromatic alterations" doesn't makes much sense, if I start with the chord progression. But If I start with the melody/voice, it can be the case. Am I right?

At this moment, I'm relatively good at writing drums and basslines. I'm starting to put chords on my songs, taking the notes from my basslines and applying chords that uses the notes from them (very basic harmonies, using triads). However, using 4 note chords are way better and more sound pleasing, so I've experimented with some chords that fits the situation I've explained. And for my interests (Deep House and some "melodic" Electro), it's working pretty well.

But... so, is it possible that I hum, say, a simple bassline which the notes doesn't fit a scale? I thought we could perceive that a note doesn't belong to a scale, since it wouldn't sound "right".

Sometimes I know the scale, notes, chords that I use but sometimes I forget that the preset I am using has a +7 on one oscilator, and then clash happens but I can't hear.

Didn't know that. Interesting.

[Orphoneus]

At this moment, I'm relatively good at writing drums and basslines. I'm starting to put chords on my songs, taking the notes from my basslines and applying chords that uses the notes from them (very basic harmonies, using triads). However, using 4 note chords are way better and more sound pleasing, so I've experimented with some chords that fits the situation I've explained. And for my interests (Deep House and some "melodic" Electro), it's working pretty well.

Since it's working pretty well for you, it's got to be a good method.

But it's true in general; I think that chords are best understood as an embellishment of the bass line. So, if you you play C in the bass, then the natural choice would be the C major chord. Of course, you can play other chords, too, depending on the color you want (C minor, C7, Cmaj7,...) or different inversions (A minor, F major, ...).

But... so, is it possible that I hum, say, a simple bassline which the notes doesn't fit a scale? I thought we could perceive that a note doesn't belong to a scale, since it wouldn't sound "right".

Yes. For instance, a tried & true pattern is a chromatic walk in the bass line, i.e. something like C, C#, D, D#, E .

Of course, everything is "possible". Any advice on music theory should be understood in the sense: "If you do it that way, then it will sound good / fit a known style of music. If you don't do it that way, we don't take responsibility for bad results."