Using chords with notes that doesn't belong to the scale

[Ogg Vorbis]

Ogg Vorbis: your answer was very comprehensive, and helped a lot! If I understand correctly, using these "chromatic alterations" doesn't makes much sense, if I start with the chord progression. But If I start with the melody/voice, it can be the case. Am I right?

Either would be okay. Pick yer poison.

But... so, is it possible that I hum, say, a simple bassline which the notes doesn't fit a scale? I thought we could perceive that a note doesn't belong to a scale, since it wouldn't sound "right".

It sounds like you are trying to create music that "fits correctly" with theory. But theory is simply a descriptive tool that leads insight and to better understanding (not necessarily better composition!).

It all begins with the music and the artists. Then theoricians chase the artists around and label everything. "We'll call it the 'Goregonzola scale!'"

[dark_virus]

It sounds like you are trying to create music that "fits correctly" with theory. But theory is simply a descriptive tool that leads insight and to better understanding (not necessarily better composition!).

It all begins with the music and the artists. Then theoricians chase the artists around and label everything. "We'll call it the 'Goregonzola scale!'"

lol. Yes, I do. I know "There's no rules", and so. But since I'm starting to understand the logic behind music theory, I think it's interesting to work following these rules, so I can find ways to break them, in the future. By now, a little theory brings me some results I couldn't achieve, in the past.

I think if I make music for myself, it can be anything that sounds good or "seems to sound good". But, if I manage to put it online, I wish it to be the best I can do. It's very annoying when people say "man, your bassline is out of tune". In truth, it sets me off. I don't mind to make crappy music, using cheap/free software, achieving low volume and et cetera but I want it to be "correct", at least.

[psenior]

Hi dark_virus,

Making music according to the rules is called functional harmony. It's my favorite way of doing things. In looking at your original post, I don't think I answered your question as well as I could have. You can in fact use Cmaj7#5 over C major without any problems whatsoever. It would sound strange yet beautiful to my ears, as well as all the harmonies that would go along with it, but it would work. It would definitely sound unique; I've never heard any of these harmonies in dance music. Perhaps when I get home from work I will post a MIDI or MP3 file of what it would sound like.

[dark_virus]

Hi dark_virus,

Making music according to the rules is called functional harmony. It's my favorite way of doing things. In looking at your original post, I don't think I answered your question as well as I could have. You can in fact use Cmaj7#5 over C major without any problems whatsoever. It would sound strange yet beautiful to my ears, as well as all the harmonies that would go along with it, but it would work. It would definitely sound unique; I've never heard any of these harmonies in dance music. Perhaps when I get home from work I will post a MIDI or MP3 file of what it would sound like.

Hi, psenior. Thanks for your reply!

Yeah, I like to make music that fits at least the basic rules. I'd leave the inovation to the arrangement and sound design areas, which I still don't have so much knowledge. My learning proccess is slow, but I'm very happy with it.

I understand, and don't see any problem in using these chromatic tones, but I think it could be dangerous, since there's more chance of clashing with the melody or maybe vocals. So, my conclusion is: composing the melody first, so the chords and bass can "talk" each other.

It would be cool if you put some examples. Thanks.

[MaliceX]

I'd say, interchange scales and motions between chords and degrees.

eg: Giant Steps. II-V-I, where the I would serve as a II to lead to the next chord, V-I repeat.

[psenior]

OK, I harmonized the Cmaj7#5 over C major (actually C6-diminished). Here are the chords:

Cmaj7#5 (E/C)
Dm7 (F/D)
Em7 (G/E)
Fm/maj7 (Ab+/F)
G7sus2 (Dm/G)
Abm/maj7#5 (Em/Ab)
Am/maj7#5 (Fm/A)
Bm7#5 (Dsus4/B)

Play these harmonies on the keyboard to hear them. I did make a MIDI and MP3 file but I don't have a web site I can upload it to.

Don't think that you can only play these chords. You can play your normal C major chords as well if these are too far out for your tastes. They are probably best used as interesting passing chords.

[dark_virus]

I'd say, interchange scales and motions between chords and degrees.

eg: Giant Steps. II-V-I, where the I would serve as a II to lead to the next chord, V-I repeat.

Sorry, but I don't understand this kind of information, like II-V-I, I-IV-V and so. I have no keyboard (sold mine some years ago, and I'm planning to buy another one, in a near future), so I can't even play it to see how it sounds. I put the notes on my sequencer with mouse or PC keyboard.

So, when someone says "nah, that's a crappy song that uses only 3 chords!" I really can't get it. I listen to the song, but can't perceive these 3 chords. At this moment, I have only internet resources, and I've learned a lot on this forum and other sources. I'd like to listen only the chords of these "3 chord songs", in order to be able to understand it.

psenior: please, upload it on some free server, so I can hear what you're saying. Try www.turboupload.com, for instant and no-annoying-register upload. Or some of these servers:

http://www.2shared.com/
http://www.fileden.com/
http://www.box.net/
http://soundcloud.com/
http://www.mediafire.com/

By the way, what's these notes between brackets?
Cmaj7#5 (E/C)
Abm/maj7#5 (Em/Ab)

If I'm understanding correctly, Cmaj7#5 and Abm/maj7#5 are chords. So, I play all these notes at once, right?

Sorry for the noobish.

[wrench45us]

Cmaj7#5 (E/C)
Abm/maj7#5 (Em/Ab)



what's in the parentheses is an alternate (simpler)
way to think about the same set of notes

E major with C in the bass is the same as Cmaj7#5

both describe
C E G# B


Eminor with Ab in the bass is the same as Abmaj7#5

Ab C E G B
though Abmaj7#5 wouldn't include the B that the Em does


as chords get more chromactic and colorful, presumably a skilled player has this sort of slash chord notation internalized

I found slash chords to be a very useful introduction to more extended chords, but it's easy to get blown away by more extended examples

[jancivil]

I'd say, interchange scales and motions between chords and degrees.

eg: Giant Steps. II-V-I, where the I would serve as a II to lead to the next chord, V-I repeat.

Sorry, but I don't understand this kind of information, like II-V-I, I-IV-V and so.

It's just counting from the 'root' note of the key,

which when you build a chord, that's 'I', or 'i' if minor.

So, to derive 'ii' in C major, count '2' from C to get D, and build thirds on that, in the scale: D F A
that's a D minor chord.

Count up five, using the scale, to derive 'V': G. G, B, D.
A D major has a major third, D F# A. & is a little stronger to 'G'.
So: ii V I in C = Dm G C. II V I = D G C.


What MaliceX says is to consider 'C', as if it's ii or II to a new key. Which, count down 2 to derive Bb.
C (minor, or not), F, Bb. Now, Bb as ii to a new place: which is Ab. et cetera, around in a circle.


Giant Steps uses 'substitutions' to give you exotic new home keys, and is very 'chromatic' in that it can be said to span more color in terms of *chords* than staying in the one key.

If you flat the fifth of the 'V' chord, let's say G, that gives you G B Db (F). Db F G B (spelled enharmonically from the strict spelling of Db F Abb Cb, by thirds) turns out to be the same chord. Now, G can go to C, and the b5, Db, and the B can move out to (octave) C, which is Very Strong. But, Db can just as easily, and remember it's literally the same chord, to Gb. So, we've really opened up the spectrum, and are thinking harmonically and completely coherently in these terms. Gb is at the opposite side of the circle relative to C. The whole gamut is now open to you by a single device.

--
Jan

[psenior]

OK, I uploaded the mp3 file. Here's the link:
Cmaj7_5_harmony_thru_C6-dim.mp3 - 589.6 Kb

The earlier post about slash chords is correct. I put the simpler triad-based voicings up to make it easier to read and play these sounds.

[MaliceX]

I'd say, interchange scales and motions between chords and degrees.

eg: Giant Steps. II-V-I, where the I would serve as a II to lead to the next chord, V-I repeat.

Sorry, but I don't understand this kind of information, like II-V-I, I-IV-V and so.

It's just counting from the 'root' note of the key,

which when you build a chord, that's 'I', or 'i' if minor.

So, to derive 'ii' in C major, count '2' from C to get D, and build thirds on that, in the scale: D F A
that's a D minor chord.

Count up five, using the scale, to derive 'V': G. G, B, D.
A D major has a major third, D F# A. & is a little stronger to 'G'.
So: ii V I in C = Dm G C. II V I = D G C.


What MaliceX says is to consider 'C', as if it's ii or II to a new key. Which, count down 2 to derive Bb.
C (minor, or not), F, Bb. Now, Bb as ii to a new place: which is Ab. et cetera, around in a circle.


Giant Steps uses 'substitutions' to give you exotic new home keys, and is very 'chromatic' in that it can be said to span more color in terms of *chords* than staying in the one key.

If you flat the fifth of the 'V' chord, let's say G, that gives you G B Db (F). Db F G B (spelled enharmonically from the strict spelling of Db F Abb Cb, by thirds) turns out to be the same chord. Now, G can go to C, and the b5, Db, and the B can move out to (octave) C, which is Very Strong. But, Db can just as easily, and remember it's literally the same chord, to Gb. So, we've really opened up the spectrum, and are thinking harmonically and completely coherently in these terms. Gb is at the opposite side of the circle relative to C. The whole gamut is now open to you by a single device.

--
Jan

Thanks for the detailed breakdown on that as well as correcting me. It is a very interesting piece to analyze.

[jancivil]

I hadn't intended to correct, but just outline the principle of the flat 5 sub move in terms of what you said, the arrival of a 'I' as temporary, it's now II and keeps moving forward, or around.

I'd like to go look at the changes actually, I don't recall what went on in that.

[dark_virus]

Hi, jancivil. Thanks for explain.

I had a hard time understanding the basics about this (english is not my natural language):

C MAJOR

I - C E G (major chord)
ii - D F A (minor chord)
iii - E G B (minor chord)
IV - F A C (major chord)
V - G B D (major chord)
vi - A C E (minor chord)
viiº - B D F (diminished chord)

I know that I can add some notes to these chords, so I'll have 4 note chords (like C, E, G, A or C, E, G, B). These new chords are much more interesting and pleasing, at least to me. And then, I can remember countless times I heard these chords on songs I like.

I also understand that tons of songs use I, IV and V chords. But, when I hear these songs, I can't identify these standards you all talk about. So, I'd like to hear only the chord prog of these songs, in order to figure out statements like this.

Something that teached me a lot was this video someone posted here some time ago:


psenior: thank you very much. Already downloading!

[jancivil]

if you like that extra color with these simple chords, try this:

take that scalar progression, I through vii, but as you hold each chord move the bass up the next step before the rest of the chord also moves up a step, in between the two chords on the offbeat, then proceed:

C G E
D (G E)
D A F
E (A F)
E B G

etc.

and apply that kind of thinking in other ways.

[ecsmix]

Hey Dark_Virus I am on the same boat as you...hehehe
I bought several books about music, all the Idiot's from this link
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-G ... 0028643771

They helped me a lot plus this forum kick ass!!! Everybody here likes to help.

As I mention before you can achieve several diferent chords tunning the oscilators, so that's another thing we have to learn.
3 oscilators playing C-E-G, but one of the oscilators have a +7 on it, plays a diferent chord.
Deadmau5 and Kaskade uses that a lot.Besides that several presets on synths already comes tunned like that, +7, -5,+4... Can somebody explain that here as well?

About making a bassline with the notes that belong to the scale, then using chords that have same note within the chords, pretty much 90% of all dance music is done like this.
When you go to jazz, bossa nova and other styles, things can get very colourfull and hard to understand at first.
Another thing are those jazz musicians...man they remix the melody, the music live, just listening for the first time, that's a real live p.a for me...hehehhe
They go along with everything, than solo,improvise...it's incredible.
Some of those same guys did some new theory,progressions, bending the classical rules of music once more.John Coltrane.
http://www.danadler.com/misc/Cycles.pdf

One thing we need for sure is good ears to hear and understand what is being played, that will help a lot but needs lots of practice.
Since you start studying music you will for sure start liking all styles/genres and starts loving music more and more, at least that what happened to me.
What's more, you will respect the profession....musician.
Then if you go deeper you will see that only soulfull house using several diferent accoustic instruments really make use of all music theory and diferent colourfull chords and etc...Trance is another style that has more music complexity than deep,electro,progressive,minimal or techno.
You will soon listen to songs that doesn't have a lot of variation and now you ears can tell you...wait he is using one note or chord only, and a lot of sound design, even songs that you used to like are simple.
Then you start composing and try to use a chord with 5 or 4 notes and realize not all presets sound good with all that notes, polyphony playing at the same time and some presets has tunned oscilators that even play a diferent chord.
It sounds better for accoustic instruments, like piano or strings.
Then go back and start programming your own sounds to fit what you wanna use chordwise.

I can't even start when you try to remix a song with voice, then things are way more complicated because you have to use all the theory and apply to her/his voice/melody and sometimes realize is hard to create something, melodic,harmonic that is better than the original or fits better or fits at all....hehehe

Man it's a long, long road...but it's a beautiful road that you need to really, really study and study and love her...who?? music.

However to make a good dance music nowadays, you do have to learn to compose, then you need to learn sound design, then some engineering, it's a never ending road of studying. However knowing how music works it's 50%/70% there.

I know some producers who quit all that and stick with sound design and engineering and hire a musician to help him out to make his ideas music.
Usually several producers you like are like this, one guy knows music and the other knows the technical part. See for yourself on computer music or future music magazines.
Some...doesn't know anything, just deejaying, but pay someone to do all that for him and still release good stuff...hehehheeh.
In Europe they teach music in high school, that's why we have the majority of good electronic producers there. Besides that the scene(demand) is huge as well.

Listen to a real remix sounds like:
http://www.emusic.com/album/Lowland-Cla ... 20301.html

with musics like this, remixing the music, really MUSICALLY.


That's amazing.

Never give up, study,study,study, ask questions here and read this forum.
That's my advice.
Gary Ewer books are good as well.
There are some plug ins that help you with what chords to use, chord progressions and stuff like that.It's good for study as well.
Improvisator is one.