Analog or digital ?

[living sounds]

I'm still not to sure about the first one. It's probably analog, but it's also got this aggressive midrange thing going on I remember from the Matrix6 (that's why I sold it in the end).

[kilon]

There are analogs that don't sound very analog (P08 for instance) after all.

Is that a joke ?

Nah, that is often been referred to, probably because of the stable oscillators. "Real Analogue Sound" is when the oscillators fall out of tune only by looking away from the tune knob for more than 3 seconds.

Only if you consider the detune character part of the analogue sound which I dont. A detune effect sound like that to me at least... detuned.... either digital or analogue.

It is the fluid feeling of analogue character that barely makes it noticeable against a good digital emulation. Its hard to describe really but I think that is noticeable.

The big question is whether it will stand out in the mix and the average listener will spot it. My belief is that even if spotted the difference wont be so much to qualify into turning completely to analogue sound.

[Urs]

OK, here are my guesses:

0 probably analog

8 analog, probably more recent one

16 digital, ITB

24 probably analog with DCOs (Novation Bass Station etc.)

32 Plugin

40 analog

48 Plugin

56 VA synth, probably hardware

1,04 Plugin

Pretty good. 6.5 right guesses, one is only half right. One freeware synth isn't analogue and one analogue synth isn't digital.

[Gamma-UT]

The signal chain I wanted to know because certain converters add quite a bit of irritating artefacts to the signal, the Fireface being one of them. But I agree it should suffice for the test.

(Not a smiley I use lightly).

What artefacts are these, pray tell? If I had a 24bit converter with more error in the low bits than the noise floor, then I think I'd want my money back.

[Blackbelt Jones]

Ok. Quick blind test.

http://www.u-he.com/music/DorA.wav

9 x the same non-distracting bass line.

Are there any analogue synths used?
Are there any digital synths used?
Are there any plugins used?
But most importantly: Which is which?

I'll bite. Listening through some ear buds on my lap top, so they all sound thin as a result (not a fault of the samples I recon). My first hunch is to say "all digital" becuase I am a coward and don't want to expose my listening skills, but if there were any analogs in the bunch, I'd say it breaks down like this...

1 - Analog
2 - Digital
3 - Digital
4 - Digital
5 - Digital
6 - Digital
7 - Analog
8 - Not Sure, but I lead Digital
9 - Digital

I look forward to the answers!

Cheers,

BBJ

[living sounds]

(Not a smiley I use lightly).

What artefacts are these, pray tell? If I had a 24bit converter with more error in the low bits than the noise floor, then I think I'd want my money back.

Problems that come from the clock jitter and the analog stage. I've talked about that way to much, let's avoid another converter discussion right now.

[poonna]

I never own an analog other than an Oberheim Matrix-6R (which I didn't like that much), so I have no idea what I'm talking about, but let me play too!

My guess:

1 Analog
2 Analog
3 Digital
4 Analog
5 Analog
6 Digital
7 Digital
8 Analog
9 Digital

Here's hoping I could get half of these correct...

[Gamma-UT]

The big question is whether it will stand out in the mix and the average listener will spot it. My belief is that even if spotted the difference wont be so much to qualify into turning completely to analogue sound.

Once you've slapped on reverb, given it a squeeze with compression and limiting, have it sat in a mix and then dithered down to 16bit, I think the differences will be marginal at best.

You will always be able to hear a difference between a lump of analogue hardware that's subject to temperature and voltage deviations, even humidity. It's subject to things like 1/f noise and odd little oscillations in the feedback loops. Emulating that with software is incredibly computationally intensive, especially given that people don't really know which artefacts of the hardware environment are most noticeable to the ear. But against that, you have the question: how much of the difference matters?

I spent half the day with an academic yesterday who works on physically modelling the voice among other things. As well as that, we talked about the violinist who went on stage with a Strad that later turned out to be a carbon-fibre replica. Some of the audience wanted their money back not because they thought the performance was bad or the quality of the instrument wasn't up to snuff. They had paid to hear a Strad even though they clearly could not tell wood from munged-up charcoal (expertly munged-up charcoal that it is).

[kilon]

As well as that, we talked about the violinist who went on stage with a Strad that later turned out to be a carbon-fibre replica. Some of the audience wanted their money back not because they thought the performance was bad or the quality of the instrument wasn't up to snuff. They had paid to hear a Strad even though they clearly could not tell wood from munged-up charcoal (expertly munged-up charcoal that it is).

Of course I agree with your post.

Ok that is really really sad.... but is it surprising ? I think you will agree it is not ..... Unfortunately the world is full of stereotypes.

Did you know about the small test one of the best violinists in the world made.He played in big theaters like any proper musicians and made millions in money and the one day he decided to try playing in the streets and made 15-30 euros per day, not only that but most people passing by did not even care!!!!


I think what goes into music , is far more than music itself. And that feels me with sadness....

[Gamma-UT]

(Not a smiley I use lightly).

What artefacts are these, pray tell? If I had a 24bit converter with more error in the low bits than the noise floor, then I think I'd want my money back.

Problems that come from the clock jitter and the analog stage. I've talked about that way to much, let's avoid another converter discussion right now.

Oh yes, so you have: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekslut ... e-mod.html

"Jitter is only relevant to conversion" - I know quite a few telecom engineers who'd argue the toss over that one. Jitter is, in reality, a bigger problem in digital-digital connections because the bits can 'slide' from one position to the next in extreme cases. Reclocking in digital systems is not a whole lot of fun. However, in this case, it's unlikely to be an issue because:

"...extreme jitter in the ns range". You are aware that 800ps is something like four orders of magnitude shorter than the period of one sample at 192kHz?

Somehow, I've got the feeling you have a strong position on whether you should use carbon rather than metal-film resistors.

[Gamma-UT]

Ok that is really really sad.... but is it surprising ? I think you will agree it is not ..... Unfortunately the world is full of stereotypes.

Not surprising at all. Maybe a bit sad. But spending more than a few minutes on an hifi 'audiophile' forum, that makes me sad. Yep, spend zillions on gold-plated oxygen-free copper cable and CD player isolation feet. Spend zip on room treatment. Good plan.

Did you know about the small test one of the best violinists in the world made.He played in big theaters like any proper musicians and made millions in money and the one day he decided to try playing in the streets and made 15-30 euros per day, not only that but most people passing by did not even care!!!!

That was a deliberate stunt to underline how performance depends on context. Badly Drawn Boy tried precisely the same stunt at Waterloo a few years back: everyone thought he was just another busker (which is arguably a fair point).

Go on the Tube in London, especially around South Kensington, and you'll find any number of excellent players busking. (South Ken is where the Royal School of Music is based BTW). And there are some not so good ones.

I think what goes into music , is far more than music itself. And that feels me with sadness....

If it didn't, music probably wouldn't play as much a role in life. That would be sad.

[zerocrossing]

Now all synth vendors would rather sell hardware.

I see your point and I mostly agree with it, but I think you're forgetting about the vendors/developers who want to make something that's a bit off the beaten trail. The guy or company with a vision that is risky from a commercial standpoint. I can't think of any of the majors that have a really new innovative stance aside from Roland's V-Synth and that's been around for a while.

[mcnoone]

1. Anatal
2. Anatal
3. Anatal
4. Anatal
5. Anatal
6. Anatal
7. Anatal
8. Anatal
9. Anatal

What do I win?

[living sounds]

Somehow, I've got the feeling you have a strong position on whether you should use carbon rather than metal-film resistors.

In certain applications, high voltage with high voltage swings (= certain parts of a tube circuit) a carbon comp resistor adds second order distortion in a peculiar way, partly responsible for "the vintage sound".
Everywhere else metal-film should be fine.

[living sounds]

Been to London half a year ago and heard some excellent musicians in the tube. People were actually paying attention.