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- KVRian
- 546 posts since 8 Mar, 2007
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- KVRian
- 1084 posts since 12 Sep, 2008 from Your basement
Both chords have those same notes. If all you had was just that list of notes, then you could use either description.careyletendre wrote:Hi folks,
I've been studying chord structure and naming and i came across a chord in my textbook as follows:
Eb - G - Bb - C so i thought = (root)(Major 3rd)(Perfect 5th)(Major 6th)
So i figured it's an EbMaj6 but the answer key says Cm7/Eb.
Am i correct in thinking the Cm7/Eb (Cm7 first inversion) is the same as the EbMaj6?
Carey
Getting the notes is one thing, but then you have to look at the context within the music. In that way, you'll sometimes be able to make a hard distinction between a Cm7/Eb and a Eb6.
So without any context, your answer was quite valid.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 546 posts since 8 Mar, 2007
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
generally in these cases '7' is assumed to be a minor 7; major or dim. 7 is usually indicated as such.
F11, most will see that and do at minimum F Eb G Bb (and maybe other notes, C, A, depending); Bbm9, do Bb Db Ab C.
depending on context, texture, instrument. a guitar player is going to prefer third and sevenths in voicings (and maybe omit fifth or even root) while reading, a show tune on a solo piano at a piano bar is going to have fuller chords than something where the harmony moves around more, or where the harmony is filled in by other instruments, etc
F11, most will see that and do at minimum F Eb G Bb (and maybe other notes, C, A, depending); Bbm9, do Bb Db Ab C.
depending on context, texture, instrument. a guitar player is going to prefer third and sevenths in voicings (and maybe omit fifth or even root) while reading, a show tune on a solo piano at a piano bar is going to have fuller chords than something where the harmony moves around more, or where the harmony is filled in by other instruments, etc
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 546 posts since 8 Mar, 2007
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- KVRAF
- 2830 posts since 2 Mar, 2003 from The only civilized county in Texas
Some people seem to claim that you can only built a chord from stacking thirds. Hence there is no 6.careyletendre wrote:So i figured it's an EbMaj6 but the answer key says Cm7/Eb.
Victor.
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- KVRian
- 579 posts since 8 Oct, 2005
yes thirds determine chords, thus if you have 4 notes, then determine if three of those notes forms a chord with thirds, and if so, find the root of those thirds, and that is your chord, the extra note is an extra note. Thus in the OP the answer key is correct, cm7 is correct, first inversion. And in this case, all four notes, not just three notes, can be arranged into steps of thirds like this: c, eflat, g, bflat.VicDiesel wrote:Some people seem to claim that you can only built a chord from stacking thirds. Hence there is no 6.careyletendre wrote:So i figured it's an EbMaj6 but the answer key says Cm7/Eb.
Victor.
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- KVRist
- 211 posts since 28 Apr, 2009 from Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Yes, Eb6 and Cm7 are the exact same chord. I would never write Cm7/Eb on a chord chart; that is totally wrong because it unnecessarily complicates things. We want to be like Einstein, who said "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
As you keep learning, you will find several other chords like this, such as:
C6 and Am7 (C E G A)
Cm6 and Am7b5 or A half-diminished (C Eb G A)
C7b5 and F#7b5 (C E Gb Bb)
Cdim7, Ebdim7, Gbdim7 and Adim7 (C Eb Gb A)
Yes, there are more, but these are the most commonly used ones.
As far as 9th chords go, typically you drop the root and play a 7th chord, starting on the 3rd. For example:
Cmaj9 is really Em7 or G6
Cm9 is really Ebmaj7
C9 is really Em7b5 or Gm6
C9#5 is really E7b5 or Bb7b5
C7b9 is really Edim7, Gdim7, Bbdim7 or Dbdim7
As far as 11th chords go, you can drop the root and the 3rd and continue to play the appropriate 7th chord starting on the 5th. I'll leave this one for you to figure out. It's pretty easy.
In fact, when you start thinking like this, it really simplifies things. For example, when I see C7 on a chord chart, I think of Em7b5, Gm6, Gm7, Edim7, Gdim7, Bbdim7, and Dbdim7 as my most common "inside" (i.e. consonant) chords to play.
Does that make sense to you? Hope I'm not laying on the theory too thick! Keep studying harmony and chord voicings. It's lots of fun and it will enable you to get just about anything you can imagine to sound good.
As you keep learning, you will find several other chords like this, such as:
C6 and Am7 (C E G A)
Cm6 and Am7b5 or A half-diminished (C Eb G A)
C7b5 and F#7b5 (C E Gb Bb)
Cdim7, Ebdim7, Gbdim7 and Adim7 (C Eb Gb A)
Yes, there are more, but these are the most commonly used ones.
As far as 9th chords go, typically you drop the root and play a 7th chord, starting on the 3rd. For example:
Cmaj9 is really Em7 or G6
Cm9 is really Ebmaj7
C9 is really Em7b5 or Gm6
C9#5 is really E7b5 or Bb7b5
C7b9 is really Edim7, Gdim7, Bbdim7 or Dbdim7
As far as 11th chords go, you can drop the root and the 3rd and continue to play the appropriate 7th chord starting on the 5th. I'll leave this one for you to figure out. It's pretty easy.
In fact, when you start thinking like this, it really simplifies things. For example, when I see C7 on a chord chart, I think of Em7b5, Gm6, Gm7, Edim7, Gdim7, Bbdim7, and Dbdim7 as my most common "inside" (i.e. consonant) chords to play.
Does that make sense to you? Hope I'm not laying on the theory too thick! Keep studying harmony and chord voicings. It's lots of fun and it will enable you to get just about anything you can imagine to sound good.
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- KVRian
- 579 posts since 8 Oct, 2005
yes in practical use, C6 would be used on charts. However, if one is studying theory, then one should learn that is a typical shortcut, and one should know the fundamental chord voicings. C E G A is fundamentally Am7, first inversion, because the four notes can be arranged in steps of thirds- A, C, E, G.psenior wrote:Yes, Eb6 and Cm7 are the exact same chord. I would never write Cm7/Eb on a chord chart; that is totally wrong because it unnecessarily complicates things. We want to be like Einstein, who said "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
As you keep learning, you will find several other chords like this, such as:
C6 and Am7 (C E G A)
...snip...
In practical use, in pop/jazz/rock we would just write C6, and we are saying the 6th is added to a C chord, and the 6th considered so important in the song that the 5th, the G note, could be left out!
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- KVRist
- 211 posts since 28 Apr, 2009 from Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Mike777,
Maybe a bit of nitpicking on my part, but I don't think of C6 as being just the 6th added onto a triad anymore. To me, C6 is the tonic chord of the scale I am playing, which is C6th-diminished.
I do agree with your definition of a chord as being four notes that are separated by a third.
Maybe a bit of nitpicking on my part, but I don't think of C6 as being just the 6th added onto a triad anymore. To me, C6 is the tonic chord of the scale I am playing, which is C6th-diminished.
I do agree with your definition of a chord as being four notes that are separated by a third.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
you can build a chord any way you can think of to do it. you can do: Eb Bb F C G D (by P 5ths) and have something you might call, "Eb maj 9 add 6", or you might think of it as stacked fifths, or invert it to where it's a "quartal" chord. 
the difference is context and/or voicing. if the Eb is doubled and in the bass, chances are it's an Eb add 6.
If the C is doubled, chances are it really is just a Cm7.
Chances are that, if there is no such emphasis such as these, that it really doesn't matter what you call it, it's the same sonority.
the difference is context and/or voicing. if the Eb is doubled and in the bass, chances are it's an Eb add 6.
If the C is doubled, chances are it really is just a Cm7.
Chances are that, if there is no such emphasis such as these, that it really doesn't matter what you call it, it's the same sonority.
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- KVRian
- 1084 posts since 12 Sep, 2008 from Your basement
This concept is totally unfamiliar to me. After thinking it through, it doesn't make any sense.VicDiesel wrote:Some people seem to claim that you can only built a chord from stacking thirds. Hence there is no 6.careyletendre wrote:So i figured it's an EbMaj6 but the answer key says Cm7/Eb.
Victor.
The 6th CAN be derived from thirds. It's a 13th with omitted 7th, 9th and 11th! There is no "rule" or theoritical reason to have to have all the chord tones present in order to name it.
If you think about it for a half of a nanosecond, you'll see that ANY member of a diatonic scale can be considered to be derived by thirds. D F# A C# E G B... there you are...all the notes of D major.
A harmony of D F# A and B can certainly have a root of D. The fact that there is a 6th (or a 13th) thrown in does not have to re-designate the root.
To say that a root has to be re-designated because of an added 9th or 13th (minus the 7th, say) is crazy theory....it's not reasonable.
Add to this the FUNCTIONAL aspects of the harmony...look at a cadence like V to I. The presence of a 6th in the dominant harmony does NOT change the function of the harmony. In fact the added note can even act functionally (melodically) setting up the resolution to the tonic. Therefore the root does NOT change.
Can anyone really present a convincing argument for this "building up thirds designates the root" thing?
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
ah, yeah. 
beyond that:
can anyone present a sound argument that "what you hear isn't what you get"? "chord theory" is about how sonorities function harmonically; what is the direction, the effect, the point of the harmony? It's not less than that.
The above post where 'this chord is really that chord...' isn't the most well-expressed or accurate thing I've ever read... for instance:
"C9#5 is really E7b5 or Bb7b5". Well, it may be useful to have that ideation for improv or mind expansion purposes, and that may be the point of that statement; but in the key of F, is C E G# Bb D *really* the IV chord? Bass player grabs C here according to a chart, or Bb according to a chart; where are we now? Everything is permitted, nothing is true.
The intent of the person who came up with the idea in the first place is the "really" here. EG: C E G# D Bb goes to F A C.
It's harder to make an argument for Bb 9, really.
beyond that:
can anyone present a sound argument that "what you hear isn't what you get"? "chord theory" is about how sonorities function harmonically; what is the direction, the effect, the point of the harmony? It's not less than that.
The above post where 'this chord is really that chord...' isn't the most well-expressed or accurate thing I've ever read... for instance:
"C9#5 is really E7b5 or Bb7b5". Well, it may be useful to have that ideation for improv or mind expansion purposes, and that may be the point of that statement; but in the key of F, is C E G# Bb D *really* the IV chord? Bass player grabs C here according to a chart, or Bb according to a chart; where are we now? Everything is permitted, nothing is true.
The intent of the person who came up with the idea in the first place is the "really" here. EG: C E G# D Bb goes to F A C.
It's harder to make an argument for Bb 9, really.
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- KVRist
- 350 posts since 11 May, 2008
I think that all this stuff is true or false according to context: to what comes before and what follows after.
Pick the initial chord: is Eb6 or Cm7? Well, it depends.
Supose that before Eb - G - Bb - C, you had D - F - Bb - D. Just that. That I can reason, well, it's Bb - Eb6. V-I. Perfect. We are in Eb.
Now, supose that after Eb - G - Bb - C you had Eb - F - A - C and then D - F - Bb - D.
Then I'd say well it's ii7 - V7- I, then it's Cm7 - F7 - Bb. And we are in Bb.
So, the progression and context will tell you the difference between an Eb6 and a Cm7. One is a major chord, the other is a minor one. One is possibly a tonic, the other is possibly a subdominant... for instance. Let the ear tell you.
Pick the initial chord: is Eb6 or Cm7? Well, it depends.
Supose that before Eb - G - Bb - C, you had D - F - Bb - D. Just that. That I can reason, well, it's Bb - Eb6. V-I. Perfect. We are in Eb.
Now, supose that after Eb - G - Bb - C you had Eb - F - A - C and then D - F - Bb - D.
Then I'd say well it's ii7 - V7- I, then it's Cm7 - F7 - Bb. And we are in Bb.
So, the progression and context will tell you the difference between an Eb6 and a Cm7. One is a major chord, the other is a minor one. One is possibly a tonic, the other is possibly a subdominant... for instance. Let the ear tell you.
Play fair and square!
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- KVRist
- 211 posts since 28 Apr, 2009 from Ft. Lauderdale, FL
C9#5 would not resolve to F; I never claimed that it would. It most definitely would resolve to Fm6. This suggests the scale that you would probably call F "jazz" melodic minor and what I would call Fm6-diminished.
I certainly am coming from from a jazz improv point of view. IMHO, there's no way you could play a tune such as "Night in Tunisia" well without these concepts.
I certainly am coming from from a jazz improv point of view. IMHO, there's no way you could play a tune such as "Night in Tunisia" well without these concepts.
jancivil wrote:
The above post where 'this chord is really that chord...' isn't the most well-expressed or accurate thing I've ever read... for instance:
"C9#5 is really E7b5 or Bb7b5". Well, it may be useful to have that ideation for improv or mind expansion purposes, and that may be the point of that statement; but in the key of F, is C E G# Bb D *really* the IV chord? Bass player grabs C here according to a chart, or Bb according to a chart; where are we now? Everything is permitted, nothing is true.
The intent of the person who came up with the idea in the first place is the "really" here. EG: C E G# D Bb goes to F A C.