How to make good, thick leads?

[residentevilrulz]

Hey, I don't like to call myself a noob but I guess I am with this subject. I've tried tirelessly for a month or so now to program patches for my MicroKorg from scratch. For the past 4 years I've just used the presets but I grew sick of it and became completely fascinated with the idea of programming my very own sounds. I however am very easily frustrated because I just don't know how! I've read through the manual several times and can never produce anything that sounds good.
All the sounds I make sound like primitive 8-bit synths. Don't get my wrong, I LOVE chiptune music and I love songs from the nes days. But I want good, strong, sophisticated dance leads that you'd hear in really good trance music or electro goth stuff. My genre is goth/industrial. If you want to hear the type of music I make, click the myspace link under the post. That might help. Someone please just steer me in the right direction as far as learning how to program my own patches and making them sound right.
I guess it'd help if I told you what I do understand. I understand Oscillators, waveforms, attack, decay, resonance, and arpeggiators. LFOs have been tough for me to understand as well has the 4 channel patches on the Microkorg. It'd be great if a fellow microkorg user replied to this since you understand the layout of the synth. Other replies from people experienced in synthesis are very welcome. It's just tough because it's not like they have classes for synthesis.. Thank you much!

[TankEyes]

hi r.e.r (i love that series too

I don't own a microkorg (a pity - they're cool), but I can give you some basics on programming a dance music lead.

A fat lead synth is actually (usually) very simple. The tough bit is really getting to sit nicely in a mix and processing it so it has the right tone and space in the mix.

A typical dance lead relies on a couple of SAW wave oscillators and a single sub oscillator underneath (tuned one octave down, SAW or SQUARE). The two main oscs should be panned slightly to the left and right, and they should be detuned slightly (a 5-50 cents each)

If you want a plucky synth, put a LP filter on it and give it's envelope a quick decay (1/10) and a moderate (4/10) sustain. For a stabby lead, keep the filter off or fully open.

If you want it stabby, give it no (0/10) release.

To treat it to give it a bit of character, apply some tube distortion and maybe a little bit of chorus (try to be subtle).

If you want it to be a bit more spacey, put some delay on it with a 3/4 note delay, and a 75% feedback.

For a more airy, large sound, apply a church or large hall style reverb on it.

Finally, you'll want to EQ it a bit. Roll off the deep lows so it doesn't interfere with the bass, and maybe give it a few subtle boosts and notches, by no more than a few db, in the 500-5000k area. This will add character and presence. Add some EQ at 10K+ to give it some air. (again, only a few db)

Portamento (slides between notes) is often used in a single layer lead.

When you're mixing it, don't be tempted to have it too far forward (loud). Let the other parts have some space in the mix too breathe, as hopefully by now your lead is very harmonically rich. When you get the balance right the rhythms will "pop out" and "gel-together" and your lead will sound strong without being loud.

that's all for now, I hope it's been helpful.

[infectedpimple]

The same way you'd make a thick sandwich: layers! toss those thin leads through some verb or delay or chorus, try running them through an amp/cab sim and mix it with the original, try some double-tracking, either automatic or actually playing the same part twice and hard-panning each take to a side, all sorts of good stuff you can do. I'll bet your patches are just fine--the reason impressive synth patches sound impressive is because of the effects, and not so much because of the oscillations and ADSR envelopes and whatnot...

though this is of course not to say that impressive things can't or haven't been done without the help of such effects!

[residentevilrulz]

Thanks a lot for the help guys! And I'm glad you like Resident Evil too (: See I used to be a computer based musician but I recently said a big EF YOU to vst's and such. I just fell in love with hardware synths and such. It's just so much more... real? I don't know how to explain it but I just love the feel. There are certain things that I have to do on the computer like my Symphonic Choirs vst or Symphonic Orchestra, but yeah. I'll be fiddling with this some more tonight. I was thinking of buying a Roland SH-101 because I heard they are really great with making leads. Not to mention it's an AWESOME vintage analog synth. I do want the microkorg xl too though so I'm probably going to be poor pretty soon. Thanks again guys and I'll be practicing some all night. My only problem is there are only 2 oscillators on my microkorg. I'm not sure how to make a "sub oscillator" but I'll try.

[TankEyes]

If i were you, and I was trying to produce some gothic inspired dance music, I would think about what gothic means to people. I would listen to gothic horror movie soundtracks, maybe even sample some old ones.

Then I would try to recontextualise it, to make it my own. Just brainstorming here, I would try to include sounds like church organs, tubular bells, gregorian chants, choral singing, dark strings, horns, etc - but somehow opproach them in a new way. Like chop a few loops together in a really frenetic way and filter them.

And play around, have fun with it, get crazy. Make a Gregorian chant the goes into a crazy pitch bend frenzy - then cut in a microsecond of a bloodcurdling scream. Maybe go get some field recordings of churches or graveyards and include them.

Sit down and brainstorm with your band mates about ways you could "break the mold" and put your unique stamp on the scene.

anyways, ciao

[residentevilrulz]

Holy shit, reading your post gave me chills of excitement lol. I get what you're saying and I've somewhat been trying that. Not to the extent that you mentioned but I definitely will. I have an odd obsession with fire engine horns. I think they sounds utterly terrifying and I have ever since I was a young child. I have some of those in a few of my works in progress. I need to get some good tubular bell samples. I do have a whole library of choirs and chants so I'm not worried about that. The type of goth music I'd like to start making is much different than what's on my myspace. I want it to be like.. very dark but at the same time dancy. So the elements you've stated will most definitely be there but there will also be dance leads and such. You guys are the best on here. Oh and a quick update, I was taking some of the advice given in the previous posts and came up with something great but completely unexpected. While trying to make a dance lead.. I somehow produced a relatively realistic sounding church organ. I've no idea how, but I love it and saved it as one of my patches. If you guys want to hear some of the sounds I come up with, I can upload some samples.

[TankEyes]

Get into it And yep, throw up a mixdown in the music cafe when you've got some ideas down I'll make sure to share some thoughts.

Hardware is good.. Especially if you wanna perform live. Having it all there in front of you is a BIG plus, performance wise... Instead of staring at a laptop hoping Live doesn't crash while you pretend to make those "professional DJ" mixer readjustments.

[residentevilrulz]

Alright sounds good. One thing that's always been a big problem of mine is actually forming a song. If you listen to the songs on my myspace, those were done with a partner. I make really great beats and melodies, but I have serious problems understanding how to actually form a song and piece it all together. I'm getting better though so hopefully I can produce something that sounds pleasing to the ears in the very near future. I use Ableton live to record but all of my sounds come from hardware synths. FL7 used to be my main base of operations but I only use it for certain vst's that cannot be replicated with hardware, like the ones I previously mentioned. The thing is, I understood FL7 inside and out, but I find Ableton to be very confusing and I don't even like it. I like the audio effect rack it has and such, but not the interface. Hopefully I'll get more used to it. And omg I hear you on the laptop crashing thing. I get so nervous about that every time I see electronic bands live.

[scottkane]

fat = detuned = chorus etc

[mcnoone]

It might help if you go past the point of only coming up with the "primitive 8bit sounds". Don't give up at that point. That means keep going and experimenting with yet unused features, of the synth.
Try as many variations of each modulation, or module the synth has to offer.
The extra effort and time put into experimenting will only benefit your learning.
The time you spend reading a manual or books and forums about synthesis, is time better used, turning knobs, and pressing buttons, and listening.

Try not to get into the synth to produce, what you've heard in this or that song.
Get into the synth to produce, what you have never heard before sounds.
It's more rewarding, and interesting that way.

Good luck...this thread makes me miss my old D20.
Regards,
Michael
BTW..Resident Evil fan since from day 1. (PS1)

[residentevilrulz]

Thanks Mcnoone. I wasn't trying to achieve the 8bit sound lol. It's exactly what I didn't want. I've been messing with the Microkorg all night and have come up with some great results. I came up with a total of 5 new patches tonight and I was trying to do what you just said. The whole bit about trying to make something you've never heard. It went pretty well. The best part is, they actually sound good! Though I had an enormous amount of shitty results at first but I guess it's to be expected. I am currently trying to make a rave-bass drum time of sound. I have the sound there but it's layered with this stupid cheesy saw sound and I'm currently trying to figure out how to get rid of it. D20 huh? Awesome! What happened to it? And glad to know about Resident Evil! (:

[longfella]

just off suibject u had said you were strugling with lfo's i have some adviceach note obviously has its on frequency, the next note up the octave is exactly double and so forth. type in a google search for note to frequency to hrz conversion table (sound techy but isnt). now say you have a note and the hrz is in front of you if you divide that figuir by half or quarter or three quarter and set your lfo to them setting you will find that the oscilation will work in sequwence to notes making the sound more fluint and deliberate, ob viously whern you move on to your next note your frequency setting will change so ajust accordingly. if you just set a static setting it will sound static if you automate this it sound like yuou want it to, this technique is the basis of it but usually used in conjuction with other techniques, for instance automating the filter cuttoff or modulting the velocity. i am not looking to patronise because im no expert but i have been working at some stuff i hope it can be of interest(i dont know what stage u are at basically) when you have any instrument in front of you the way a setting of a function take the dial to the farest it will go write it down then divide it by 128 your answer is the amount that your coloms in your midi editer or piano roll rather represent.
let me know if you try this and what your thoughts r if it needs tweaking i will explain more cheers bro

[D N A]

Well, I don't own MicroKorg, also It's hard to judge my own synth programming skills (some people say I'm very good at it, some don't say anything ) but still I have something to say hehe

I also had this moment, long time ago, when I knew what Oscillators mean, what Envelopes mean but somehow - every synth I tried seemed flat. It seemed flat because I didnt know even the most basic tricks

BASIC OSCILLATORS STUFF:
1. You have 1xOSC with SAW waveform. Add another one saw OSC but 12 semitones (which means 1 octave) lower. Or even 24 semitones. Useful for epic chords or just fat leads.
2. You have 1xOSC with SAW waveform. Add another one saw OSC but +7 / -7 semitones. Useful for so called "deadmau sounds"
3. Yoh have 1xOSC with SAW waveform. Add another one saw OSC and detune / fine it. Useful for creating epic trance pads, or "supersaws"

Slight detune means, bright, lively sound.

The more detuned the sound is, the more "fat" it seems, but at the same time the less bright it is. To make it more bright : you can add another saw OSC but with 12 semitones (1 octave) higher and change it's volumen until you'll find sweet spot. Or you can just ... less detune them

4. 2 oscillators are often not enough so you can use 3x SAW oscillators and slightly detune (one instance at 0 value fine, second instance at ... ie. +10 fine knob, third instance at -10 fine knob

Of course SAW waveform is example - feel free to test another waveforms

BASIC LFO STUFF:
1. most synths let you assign your lfo to the:
a) filter
Which is useful for all kind of atmospheres, pads, evolving sounds... well, it's useful for everything

b) oscillator pitch
low value of SLOW Lfo means vibrato effect - if you want to create ie. pad, then additional vibrato effect (very subtle) added to one oscillator can bring some life to your sound
low / mid / high value of Very fast LFO means achieving gritty, mettalic sounds

FILTER ENVELOPE
I've noticed that a lot of people, don't know that tiny little knob hidden between hundreds of other knobs called "Filter Mod Env" - which means an amount which filter is modulated by filter envelope. Thanks to this (+ very short envelope) you can create whole range of pluck sounds that seem to conquer progressive house, tech house, trance etc. but not only. Also some kind of cymbal sounds etc.

AMP ENVELOPE
For a long long time I knew 2 Attack Settings:
1. 0 attack - used for all kind of leads etc.
2. some attack (let's say 50 % of full "power" ) - usable for all kind of atmosptheres, strings, pads.

But there's third. very small amount of attack which helps creating "harmonica like" presets for example, but not only. It's also very usable for creating wide, detuned, trance leads.

LAYERING
I'm not sure about MicroKorg but overall, Layering is very powerful. You have flat sounding patch ? Just add another instance (vst) of same synth and just scroll through the presets - you can find plenty of sounds that will "fit" and make this flat sound alive.

POSITIONING THE SOUND
If you create bass that plays in mono (in the center), lead that plays in mono, pad that plays in mono, you'll end up with totally overcrowded center. While bas / subbas should be generally mono (at least in dance music), the other sounds can be played stereo / wide.

How to make sound wider ?
- Use delay with different time settings for Left and Right channel or just use ping-pong delay.
- Use reverb
- Use chorus
- use unison mode (which means more than 1 sound played), quite often synths have so called "stereo" button which moves the sound more stereo.
- create 2 instances of same synth and PAN the one instance left, the other one to the right.

EFFECTS
Only veeery totally dry sounds sound good. for most sounds, using effects can greatly improve the quality.

learn to use:
a) DELAY - synced with host or not, ping-pong delay, filtered delay
b) REVERB - it's easy to fall in love with reverb but dont over use it. knobs that can make nice tricks: pre-delay, damping, low cut-off, high-cutoff
c) CHORUS - this can make the sound warmer, wider and generally "less digital". Very nice for all kind of strings, pads but not only
d) EQing - extreme EQuing (especially when using softsynth) can dramatically improve the sounds. Quite often, sound withouth equing has too much bass, is too muddy. - Removing low frequencies for example, can make the patch sound better. If you dont have EQ, but you have ie. second filter - you can change it to High-Pass for example, and it will act similar as removing low-frequencies with EQ.


There are a lot of tricks These are just basic, usable for most 2-3 VA (soft)synths... Just improvise and sooner or later you'll get through "that door"

[MOK19]

Wow, DNA. Epic post!

residentevilrulz, you've gotten a lot of good tips here. But in my experience with learning to craft a sound from nothin, there's steps that people have been overlooking in most or all of these posts that's actually a lot more immediately relevant to your problem. When a patch sounds too '8-bit,' as you aptly put it, that generally means that the basic waveforms(Saw, Sine, Square, Triangle...) are showing through too much, are too recognizable.

I don't know what controls or capacities your synth has, but as an experiment I'd suggest starting 'clean with a saw, and a square on the same octave. Take one of those waveforms, and slowly adjust it's phase offset. Try this also with another saw, sine, or triangle. You'll notice some slight changes in its timbre. The important thing here(imo) is seeing that sometimes there's phase positions that sound much better, and much worse for your needs. So always check that, and do it slowly, systematically.

If you're not feeling very confident with phase, or don't quite understand what exactly it does, I'm sure we can give you an explanation to clear it up a bit. If you took any math in school that dealt with sine waves, think in those terms and try to imagine the waveforms stacking on top of each other, where their peaks might come into phase to synergize, or do the opposite and mitigate or cancel each other out. Controlling this interaction can help you nudge certain harmonics, or do stuff like create high frequencies without even using an upper octave oscillator.

After you've tried that, take a listen to what happens when you allow the oscillators to run unsynchronised, by toggling off the control commonly called 'sync'. This will probably make some obvious changes.

As DNA suggested, detuning has a profound effect. With a clean slate, load up two waveforms, and try subtly detuning one of them, then both of them. Do it slowly, try it systematically. You'll start to get the feel of how this particular modulation works out pretty quickly. Then try fiddling with the phase of one of those two oscillators. Doesn't sound lo-fi anymore, I'm guessing. If you add more detuned oscillators, or use a the unison feature (or whatever your synth calls it), you'll get a more profound effect. Sometimes just a slight nudge of it will do just fine though.

While experimenting with these, I'd also suggest occasionally checking out what happens when you turn down an oscillator's volume in relation to the other(s). This is especially important when you have oscillators running on different octaves. As a common example, if your end product doesn't have enough low end, or the highs are too piercing, consider turning down the upper octave oscillator before you go jumping to the EQ.

Also, as a general trend, the lo-fi/8-bit effect tends to be more pronounced when you allow the higher frequencies to play out. If you take off the top frequencies with your lowpass filter, that will do a lot to smooth it out. It doesn't have to take much of a cut, either.

One last bit, something that's getting a bit more advanced... If your synth has multiple filters which can run in parallel, and can be panned, this can make a surprising difference. Try setting each filter slightly differently, and pan one to the right, and the other to the left. Something to keep in mind for later.

NOTE that all of these things are considerations that (IMO) should generally be made BEFORE further modulation, like chorus, EQ, flange, phaser, delay, distortion, and all these other peripheral fx.
Your Waveform, phase, oscillator volume, and detuning are generally your starting point for creating a patch. And I suggest the step after those would be nailing your amplitude envelope or filter envelope. If you get a good handle on those, you may often find that you don't even need all those other FX to get a solid lead sound.

Good luck!