Simulate sustain pedal

[HikaruGunner]

I can't find anything like that on my keyboard... it's a gear4music mk-900 midi keyboard.

[TiUser]

...hmmm,I've googled it... don't feel offended but this thing looks like a toy. If the manual does not give any hints on how to send controllers via midi... maybe it can not do it.

I guess there is no key velocity or aftertouch too...

Does the modulation wheel and the pitch bend work?



[Edit]
I really tried to find out more but google didn't help finding a manual for your gear4music mk-90 keyboard...

[HikaruGunner]

Well at the time it seemed the natural choice for someone who is just beggining to learn to play piano. A 61 keys-sensitive keyboard is hard to find at this price.

I don't know what key velocity and aftertouch are...

The Pitch Bend and Vibrato wheels don't work on cantabile too, the midi light doesn't flash red when I use them.

EDIT: Here is the manual, I didn't find anything useful in it though MK-900 OWNER'S MANUAL

[TiUser]

Well at the time it seemed the natural choice for someone who is just beggining to learn to play piano. A 61 keys-sensitive keyboard is hard to find at this price.

True, I agree.

If you are a beginner and learning let me add some things... Despite all "piano keyboards" look to be the same - black and white keys - they feel and play different - it's not just a matter of sound.

Basically there are three types of keys:

Piano keys with heavy hammer action like a grand piano. You can learn a lot of bad technique when you're trying this without a teacher.

Synthesizer keys with light and fast action - used in most keyboards. While pure piano playing technique helps a lot it isn't as important. There are also things you can't do on a piano... like aftertouch - means you can press a key further after the initial stroke and get an additional effect - which is usually programmable.

Organ keys - seems to be the same as synth keys but there are some special things here... the front shape is different (waterfall design), organ keys do not have the little nose here which is better for some special playing techniques especially practised on e-organs.

Technically under the hood I've found that there are keyboards with short and long levers - you can't really see this until you open the thing... the boards with long levers are easier to play because force needed to press down differs less in the visible, touchable area.

Finally there are other ways making music with a PC and using other controllers than keyboards.

I don't know what key velocity and aftertouch are...

Synthesizers and keyboards have a lot of technical aspects often underestimated by a beginner who is fascinated about the possibilities... and possibly this never ends even after decades looking into the matter... When you look into PC technology from a musicians point of view you have to deal with even more complex stuff hardly having to do with music...

The magic word here is "Midi"... and it is used for so many different things.

Basically midi has two aspects: Software wise it is a protocol for communication between music devices. Hardware wise it is related to the classical 5 pole midi plug/socket and opto electronic coupling. Today the midi protocol is often transmitted over USB connections or other transport layers.

Velocity and aftertouch are part of the software command protocol.

Velocity is a command part value that specifies how hard (i.e. how fast) you've hit the key.

Aftertouch was already explained above.

Both is not necessarily possible with all types of keys. Organ type keyboards do basically not need velocity or aftertouch to be authentic. Grand piano keys do not need aftertouch. With synthesizers and keyboards there are all shades in between... of course related to price too...

The Pitch Bend and Vibrato wheels don't work on cantabile too, the midi light doesn't flash red when I use them.

So it looks like none of the controllers are transmitted via midi...

Either there is an option not activated or your keyboard can not transmit this.

EDIT: Here is the manual, I didn't find anything useful in it though MK-900 OWNER'S MANUAL

...that's too often with manual - not only manuals from lower priced keyboards are bad... manuals of expensive workstations are often not really helpful too - even if you know some stuff...


Referring to that the Cantabile manual is really good - on the other hand Cantabile is a complex program and you might need some time to understand. But don't worry, this is what this forum is about!

[HikaruGunner]

So basically I need to buy me a new keyboard =\

[TiUser]

So basically I need to buy me a new keyboard =\

No.
I just wrote the long information to get you some insight.

But I guess what you need to accomplish the sustain pedal function you're looking for in Cantabile is any kind of additional HW - at least if it's impossible to make your keyboard sending the needed midi controller command.

Maybe there is a sustain pedal with USB you could add to your setup.

I'll let you know if I stumble across something like that.

Other than that I think I remember that the Cantabile on screen keyboard simulates sustain on the shift key of your PC keyboard...

[Sasu Honka]

You don't necessary have to buy a new keyboard. You could go also this way: http://www.cme-pro.com/products-list/product-gpp.html

This pedal could be used with any keyboard you might purchase later on. It is not cheap, (about 85€ in Europe), but it has continuous action. (It is able to send all values, not just 0 or 127)

One thing I have to say about CME is that their support is one of the worst on the planet and they have a tendency to abandon old products. But if a product works for you then it works.

Better alternative would be this old Anatek gizmo which is sadly discontinued, but if you find a used one, it is perfect for your needs.

Anatek Pocket Pedal

http://www.izcorp.com/about-product-mus ... natek-prod

Pocket Pedal

* Sends on multiple MIDI channels
* Sends pitch-bend, modulation, portamento time, and MIDI Volume
* Supports 1 continuous controller
* Supports 1 momentary footswitch
* Sends sustain, portamento on/on, sostenuto, and start/stop
* Auto pedal/footswitch calibration
* Forward/Reverse pedal operation
* 3 mode pitch-bend operation

more

1994 List Price $99.00

Pocket Pedal is an indispensable controller for the performing musician. With the addition of any volume pedal and footswitch, keyboard 8 guitar-synth players can send MIDI volume, modulation, and sustain controls on all 16 MIDI channels at the same time. For owners of muiti-effects processors, Pocket Pedal" provides a convenient and cost effective way of providing dynamic control over effects parameters. Pocket Pedal" is a handy controller for automated mixdowns - converting any resistive input into MIDI Controller messages for VCAs. Connect a photocell to Pocket Pedal" and control MIDI parameters with a light source. What's more, MIDI retro-fitters can install Pocket Pedal into a guitar, home piano or organ to send pitch-bend modulation or MIDI Volume messages. close

[TiUser]

You don't necessary have to buy a new keyboard. You could go also this way: http://www.cme-pro.com/products-list/product-gpp.html
...<snip>

Great idea, however HikaruGunners problem will be that this pedal costs about the same as his keyboard... found the pedal for $99...

[Sasu Honka]

Great idea, however HikaruGunners problem will be that this pedal costs about the same as his keyboard... found the pedal for $99...

Sad but true! The Anatek Pocket Pedal could be under 50$ from the old stock if found somewhere.

There might be a DIY way also, but I would recommend buying a used Casio or such keyboard instead.

You could find some MIDI and sustain model from a second hand shop for maybe 20-30$ if you're lucky.

[TiUser]

Well a bit OT but I guess we all try to make the most out of our money, do we?

Problem with today's gear is that there is so many to choose from with loads of this and that functionality but if some tiny details you want do not work you either have to see for something else - if you haven't already bought that - or you need to find workarounds which are usually expensive and may also overlap in functionality you already have and don't need...

If you are new to something it's even worse. People often recommend what they like or use - but does this fit the newbie? When I am new to something and looking into it I even often don't know myself exactly what I want or expect...

Coming back to this keyboard - it looks to be great value for the buck - really, but only if it does what one expects... and that's usually tough to find out - even if you have some more experience and know better what you want or need.

So just to note the hard way... maybe there is a money back option to send this keyboard back for refund and looking for something else?

[HikaruGunner]

No there is no chance to return the keyboard. I'm trying to learn the piano the right way, and recently learned that a conventional sustain pedal is necessary for that, enabling the sustain effect on the pc keyboard (the way I did it on cantabile described a few posts back) is just impractical.

I could use the pedal with the inbuilt sound of the keyboard, but to be honest, the sound it's a joke (in that aspect I do agree that it looks like a toy). Can't compare to the beatiful sound of a good quality piano VST.

Just for giggles, here's a video of a young girl playing this keyboard with it's inbuilt sound.

She can play very well tough.

[TiUser]

No there is no chance to return the keyboard. I'm trying to learn the piano the right way, and recently learned that a conventional sustain pedal is necessary for that, enabling the sustain effect on the pc keyboard (the way I did it on cantabile described a few posts back) is just impractical.

I don't think I am a pianist but no keyboard feels like a piano and each time I've tried to play a real piano (or an electric thing that simulates the weight of real piano keys) I couldn't because of a lack of fingerpower needed for that - which is really brute compared to a usual keyboard or synth...
Concerning the sustain pedal - I avoid using it while practising as it smears the sound and covers little things you can't hear well. Concerning myself, I learned more from not using a sustain pedal...

If you look into synth sounds there is another challenge when you try playing monophonic sounds... not because there is just one note to be heard but because usually legato playing sounds much different to staccato... Even the best players - like Jordan Rudes - are not 100% perfect in mastering this - and Jordan is an outstandingly gifted professional keyboard wizard...
...so if you're looking for a challenge...

I could use the pedal with the inbuilt sound of the keyboard, but to be honest, the sound it's a joke (in that aspect I do agree that it looks like a toy). Can't compare to the beautiful sound of a good quality piano VST.

Just for giggles, here's a video of a young girl playing this keyboard with it's inbuilt sound.

She can play very well tough.

Even much more expensive keyboards will not provide you grand piano sounds like good VSTi pianos offer. I've only NI's aged "Akoustik Piano" which is discontinued now as single instrument but even this surpasses most keyboards and even dedicated electronic home pianos. It's a quality where even better ordinary speakers and other gear start to disappoint... IMHO the grand piano sound is one of the hardest to be reproduced by electronic instruments. Actually HW instruments do simply not provide enough memory to store the great sample based VSTi's you can use on a PC - but I guess that's just a matter of time... when I think how professional keyboards two decades ago sounded...

Referring to your youtube example - she plays not bad but... there are some things an experienced performer of the same level of skill would do different: If you make a glitch or wrong note - do not hesitate or worse repeat in a performance... Using a metronome or auto accompaniment tells you what I'm about here. With classical music one problem is that timing isn't a constant like you start practising a new tune... Anyway, I can just refer to my own experiences... I learned a lot from using auto accompaniment in that regard.

I also miss some feel in the playing - she plays the notes fairly well but it sounds not passionate. Maybe the keyboard does not respond too well on dynamics or the tune isn't meant this way (is it?)... I can't say it different but maybe you understand anyway. Music is not only about playing complicated notes... Did you ever try to play a slow blues and did you notice how extremly difficult it is to play so slow?... and still put this typical feel in it??

Once you play with a simple backing track or other musicians - both will not wait for you hesitating or correcting your errors... For performance stay in metrum, even you glitched or missed some notes... and if you had some stage experience you would be wondering how tolerant most audience is...

Maybe there are some hints here that help you to find out faster than it took me... it's not easy and maybe a never ending story...

We are all on our personal journey and learn all the time new things... let's share them! There are no bad questions - just bad answers...

[HikaruGunner]

Concerning the sustain pedal - I avoid using it while practising as it smears the sound and covers little things you can't hear well. Concerning myself, I learned more from not using a sustain pedal..

You're absolutely right, a common error on begginers is that they use the sustain pedal too much, but still, there are songs that require the sustain pedal or they won't sound the way they are supposed to sound like.

I haven't stopped practicing because I don't have a sustain pedal, but I would like to have one in the future that would work with piano vst's and my keyboard.

Guess it's time to search ebay...

[TiUser]

Guess it's time to search ebay...

...just for curiosity - what are you gonna search for...?

[HikaruGunner]

A usb sustain pedal, but no luck so far.