So, I'm stuck for a good ending for this tune I'm on. I'll figure it out. But it lead me to start this topic.
Who has some tips for song endings?
What mistakes have you heard musicians make when ending a song? /
What are the cliches to be avoided?
How do you decide how long an outro is going to be?
For the live muso's: How do you construct those flourish endings where those last chords are drawn out for dramatic effect?
[Arrangement] Techniques for ending a pop/rock song?
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- KVRist
- 459 posts since 30 Jul, 2002 from netherlands
Just stop playing; there!...the song endedTankEyes wrote:So, I'm stuck for a good ending for this tune I'm on. I'll figure it out. But it lead me to start this topic.
See above. You can make lots of variations on this basic concept yourselfTankEyes wrote:Who has some tips for song endings?
Ending too soon or too late? But then again; something is only a mistake in music if you consider it to be one.TankEyes wrote:What mistakes have you heard musicians make when ending a song?
The cliches you don't like. Feel free to use the cliches you do like though.TankEyes wrote:What are the cliches to be avoided?
Just stop when it gets boring (unless you want to bore people, offcourse)TankEyes wrote:How do you decide how long an outro is going to be?
Don't know if I qualify as a live muso, but I tend to construct those flourish endings by drawning out the last chords for dramatic effect (whatever that means)TankEyes wrote:For the live muso's: How do you construct those flourish endings where those last chords are drawn out for dramatic effect?
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 797 posts since 23 Apr, 2009
thanks for the constructive contribution monopoli.
why would you go to so much trouble to shoot down my attempt at starting a perfectly reasonable discussion?
why would you go to so much trouble to shoot down my attempt at starting a perfectly reasonable discussion?
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- KVRist
- 144 posts since 3 Oct, 2006 from South Cack
Endings in the studio aren't necessarily that tricky. In addition to just fading on a repeated chorus, you can do a number of things:
1) Repeat the last line of the chorus once or twice and end on the tonic chord:
2) Go into the first line of a verse and stop after one or two lines:
3) Do a small 4-bar progression that hasn't been heard in the song so far, but still fits the key (or not!)
Listen to a lot of examples of music you like. Does the ending work or not?
I wouldn't worry about cliches. One of the reasons they are cliches is that, at some point, they worked extremely well and were beaten to death. But, a familiar figure may be what works best for the song.
Live playing...hehe, there's a different animal! Hit the last chord and repeat it over and over with thunderous drum fills? If the studio version doesn't fade, then just play it like the record? Segue into a different song without a break? In my experience, how the audience is reacting will largely determine how drawn out an ending gets played...and it's something you can have a lot of fun with and try different things.
Hope that helps!
1) Repeat the last line of the chorus once or twice and end on the tonic chord:
2) Go into the first line of a verse and stop after one or two lines:
3) Do a small 4-bar progression that hasn't been heard in the song so far, but still fits the key (or not!)
Listen to a lot of examples of music you like. Does the ending work or not?
I wouldn't worry about cliches. One of the reasons they are cliches is that, at some point, they worked extremely well and were beaten to death. But, a familiar figure may be what works best for the song.
Live playing...hehe, there's a different animal! Hit the last chord and repeat it over and over with thunderous drum fills? If the studio version doesn't fade, then just play it like the record? Segue into a different song without a break? In my experience, how the audience is reacting will largely determine how drawn out an ending gets played...and it's something you can have a lot of fun with and try different things.
Hope that helps!
I am clearly a thread killer
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- KVRist
- 459 posts since 30 Jul, 2002 from netherlands
I made a constructive contribution! I just don't agree you started a perfectly reasonable discussion (the questions you ask are so general they just don't make sense anymore)TankEyes wrote:thanks for the constructive contribution monopoli.
why would you go to so much trouble to shoot down my attempt at starting a perfectly reasonable discussion?
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 797 posts since 23 Apr, 2009
thanks Ivory, some good ideas there. Definitely, listening to other music is the best way to discover techniques.
I've decided I'm going to use a "stop awkwardly on beat number 10" technique for my tune. It'll be a challenge to make it sound decent.
The chorus fade out technique seems a bit lazy to me, you know? All you have to do is press duplicate and pull a slider. But I guess it affords a certain feel to the end of a song.. It also could say "come see us live and we'll have an extended version for you".
I also enjoy the "falling apart" ending. Where things go out of time or start breaking up in distortion or FX.
Come to think of it, Radiohead are pretty good at studio endings, I'll have to go thru their albums.
I've decided I'm going to use a "stop awkwardly on beat number 10" technique for my tune. It'll be a challenge to make it sound decent.
The chorus fade out technique seems a bit lazy to me, you know? All you have to do is press duplicate and pull a slider. But I guess it affords a certain feel to the end of a song.. It also could say "come see us live and we'll have an extended version for you".
I also enjoy the "falling apart" ending. Where things go out of time or start breaking up in distortion or FX.
Come to think of it, Radiohead are pretty good at studio endings, I'll have to go thru their albums.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 797 posts since 23 Apr, 2009
yeah fair point. I was trying to avoid asking "help me finish my song", because that's even stupider. I felt someone could take something specific, and go from there.monopoli wrote:I made a constructive contribution! I just don't agree you started a perfectly reasonable discussion (the questions you ask are so general they just don't make sense anymore)TankEyes wrote:thanks for the constructive contribution monopoli.
why would you go to so much trouble to shoot down my attempt at starting a perfectly reasonable discussion?
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
what kind of song? what kind of things are in it.
it is kind of too general really for answers here to have much meaning.
a really obviously commerical pop song will repeat the hook 4-8 times and just end on the tonic chord or fade.
something classier will take some element and give it a twist at the end.
etc
it is kind of too general really for answers here to have much meaning.
a really obviously commerical pop song will repeat the hook 4-8 times and just end on the tonic chord or fade.
something classier will take some element and give it a twist at the end.
etc
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- KVRist
- 224 posts since 18 May, 2006
I, personally, strongly dislike the duplicate and fadeout thing, since it always feels like such a cop-out to me, like they didn't want to bother thinking up a proper ending. What do they do live when they can't fade out like that?
A few more common ending techniques:
1) Have the rest of the band stop during some part of the chorus, leaving just the vocalist to finish saying/singing a short word or phrase. Works best to really emphasize whatever bit of text you're at.
2) If you have a recognizable intro guitar/synth/something riff, play it a few times at the end, and slow to a halt.
3) When coming to the end of a vocal phrase (like when there's just one more word to go), abruptly switch to some other important line that's already showed up in the song, then finish with the word that was originally coming. (For example, , but it illustrates the example, and it can be done more tastefully in a more serious context.)
4) Build up intensity in some way before dropping off. Maybe keep layering on new elements, make things louder/harsher, transpose all the notes up a whole tone, perhaps even speed up a little. Then at a climax point, you A) pause before coming back with a final chord/downbeat; or B) just go right to the chord with no pause; or C) maybe just leave it hanging with no resolution, if it will still be obvious enough that the song ended.
5) Do the chorus a few more times and add in another instrument's solo, have the singer do some extra harmonies and add ornamentation to the basic melody. Then make the last note/chord really long and drawn out.
6) Do what ivory1029 said, start a verse (or chorus) and stop after one or two lines... but make the instrumentation more minimal, so it's (e.g.) just the singer and a guitar, maybe an acoustic guitar if it's been electric up until that point.
7) Take out elements one by one until you've got just one instrument playing its part for a few bars alone.
A few more common ending techniques:
1) Have the rest of the band stop during some part of the chorus, leaving just the vocalist to finish saying/singing a short word or phrase. Works best to really emphasize whatever bit of text you're at.
2) If you have a recognizable intro guitar/synth/something riff, play it a few times at the end, and slow to a halt.
3) When coming to the end of a vocal phrase (like when there's just one more word to go), abruptly switch to some other important line that's already showed up in the song, then finish with the word that was originally coming. (For example, , but it illustrates the example, and it can be done more tastefully in a more serious context.)
4) Build up intensity in some way before dropping off. Maybe keep layering on new elements, make things louder/harsher, transpose all the notes up a whole tone, perhaps even speed up a little. Then at a climax point, you A) pause before coming back with a final chord/downbeat; or B) just go right to the chord with no pause; or C) maybe just leave it hanging with no resolution, if it will still be obvious enough that the song ended.
5) Do the chorus a few more times and add in another instrument's solo, have the singer do some extra harmonies and add ornamentation to the basic melody. Then make the last note/chord really long and drawn out.
6) Do what ivory1029 said, start a verse (or chorus) and stop after one or two lines... but make the instrumentation more minimal, so it's (e.g.) just the singer and a guitar, maybe an acoustic guitar if it's been electric up until that point.
7) Take out elements one by one until you've got just one instrument playing its part for a few bars alone.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
when the fade out first came into practice, live they'd tack on a perfunctory ending or just move to the next song almost like a medley. I think it's as valid artistically in many cases as any other kind of ending. In fact I think it's kind of genius, the non-ending.
in some cases, the thrust of even making the song is so commercial, get it done, now we got this fade out deal, just do that, why not. and repeat the hook until it's cemented in every person's poor mind is the general idea anyway... it's advertising mentality, irritate irritate irritate. why spoil it with a clever ending.
there is no practice which is good or bad for all cases in a composition. and there's a fine line between clever and stupid.
in some cases, the thrust of even making the song is so commercial, get it done, now we got this fade out deal, just do that, why not. and repeat the hook until it's cemented in every person's poor mind is the general idea anyway... it's advertising mentality, irritate irritate irritate. why spoil it with a clever ending.
there is no practice which is good or bad for all cases in a composition. and there's a fine line between clever and stupid.
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- KVRian
- 1000 posts since 25 Feb, 2008 from Sydney, Australia
A good fade out ending is a damn fine thing.
Some songs it works well, some it sounds trite.
- I like the "breakdown" ending, where tracks are selectively removed every 4 or 8 bars, till next to nothing is left.
- Write an outro ..... at the end only and occurring no where else in the song.
- The old "mirrorform" can work (i find this one can easily get boring)
If all that fails, just do a big V-I with a staccato Orchestra Hit patch smothered in reverb
:D;)
Some songs it works well, some it sounds trite.
- I like the "breakdown" ending, where tracks are selectively removed every 4 or 8 bars, till next to nothing is left.
- Write an outro ..... at the end only and occurring no where else in the song.
- The old "mirrorform" can work (i find this one can easily get boring)
If all that fails, just do a big V-I with a staccato Orchestra Hit patch smothered in reverb
:D;)Prestissimo in Moto Perpetuo