KVR Audio

core · Post by **core** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:54 am

SOUNDresource wrote:I like this blog ---

That's the guy who's posted ripped stuff. It was mentioned just a few posts above yours...

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:01 am

ark-zero wrote:if free he could have given credit, by agreement to original creator of the samples and the other work actually done would have still been worth the download inho

he could have offered to, of course. but when someone who owned one set of samples he was using contacted him, he got very aggressive towards them, and insulted the guy (and the quality of the samples, funnily enough), posting a torrent of (not very literate) abuse on the blog. he still hasnt pulled that set; his stated attitude seems to be that he has the right to do whatever he likes with other people's samples if they made them available for zero cost.

hollowsun · Post by **hollowsun** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:56 pm

SOUNDresource wrote:I like this blog http://well_dodgy_cowboy.wordpress.com/

He's distributing other peoples' stuff .... including some of mine.

That link should be removed from here.

D.Wako · Post by **D.Wako** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:58 am

Damn, i was going to download some of the stuff on his blog, should i?

Aloysius · Post by **Aloysius** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:08 am

hollowsun wrote:
SOUNDresource wrote:I like this blog http://well_dodgy_cowboy.wordpress.com/
He's distributing other peoples' stuff .... including some of mine.

That link should be removed from here.

I just purchased something from YOUR site because you always seem to be getting ripped off by these c*nts. You've also been very generous with your time and freebies! Thanks . . .

Count_fuzzball · Post by **Count_fuzzball** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:34 am

hollowsun wrote:
SOUNDresource wrote:I like this blog http://well_dodgy_cowboy.wordpress.com/
He's distributing other peoples' stuff .... including some of mine.

That link should be removed from here.

Out of interest, other than you, who else's samples are up there?

I was under the impression that he was only distributing your speak 'n' spell samples?

But yes, I agree, for someone to come out with like 32 multi sampled instruments in month is full of shit.

hollowsun · Post by **hollowsun** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:47 pm

Aloysius wrote:I just purchased something from YOUR site because you always seem to be getting ripped off by these c*nts. You've also been very generous with your time and freebies! Thanks . . .

Thank you very much

Steve

hollowsun · Post by **hollowsun** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:03 pm

Count_fuzzball wrote:Out of interest, other than you, who else's samples are up there?

I don't know for sure but when someone brought this cowboy to our attention recently, several people spotted candidates that look as though they've been (ahem) 'borrowed' from elsewhere. There's one set there (or 'build' as he calls them) that was definitely a freebie here made by a KVR member.

Count_fuzzball wrote:But yes, I agree, for someone to come out with like 32 multi sampled instruments in month is full of shit.

Well... quite. Not just the quantity of stuff available but the diversity - from sound effects to choice ethnic instruments to pricey electric guitars to Fairlight to vintage synths. Not entirely beyond the realms of possibility of course but ... !!

And he seems to have a lot of 'friends' with truly enviable vintage synths (ARP2600, Jupiter 8, Yammie CS80) that he can borrow to sample. Again, not beyond the realms of possibility but ... !!

And all for free?

Smells too fishy to me.

Steve (or 'Hollow Dung' as our friend likes to call me!)

Count_fuzzball · Post by **Count_fuzzball** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:26 pm

Steve,

I hope this doesn't piss you off and start calling me a 'pirate' and all that....

But, http://web.archive.org/web/200503101919 ... terms.html says that you ARE allowed to redistribute the samples freely, but to give credit to yourself and a link to the site 'wherever possible', now oon3 says that he got the samples on the internet, so it's possible he didn't know where they came from?

At a stretch, I'd say that the speak and spell samples were made into a soundfont/akai program and the original packager didn't include them/they were in the comments section of the soundfont and oon3 didn't read them?

http://web.archive.org/web/200503131805 ... index.html

Are the speak 'n' spell samples page, but the links don't work...

Again, no hard feelings Steve!

elxsound · Post by **elxsound** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:46 pm

@Count_fuzzball, just exactly what would it justify if he didn't keep track of where he got the samples? More so, after he was contacted and then informed as to where his samples came from, just exactly what should he have done then?

Count_fuzzball · Post by **Count_fuzzball** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:56 pm

Ok yeah, you're right, he should've kept track of where the samples came from to ensure there was no copyright infringement.

But we can't always do that, can we? Should we start shouting off at hollowsun for distributing samples that came from websites, that he is sure infringe on no copyright?

http://web.archive.org/web/200504070915 ... index.html

(*) These samples were found on the internet on a variety of different websites and are not the creation of Hollow Sun as such. However, I have looped and normalised them for optimum performance. They are laid out in a program from C3-B3 in semitone increments.

I do not believe that there is any copyright infringement with these samples and none is intended - they are provided here in the spirit of this site to give our visitors access to authentic vintage sounds from electronic musical and other instruments that have long been out of production.

EDIT: 0on3 should have pulled those speak and spell samples from his site when he was told that they were created by hollowsun and then provided a link back to the original page on the archive.org hollowsun page, considering that that page is now taken down.

hollowsun · Post by **hollowsun** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:38 pm

No problem Fuzz!

Christ! Where did you dig that out from? That has to be 6 years old or more!!

Yes - back in the day, I didn't mind them being re-distributed as long as there was a link back to HS ... although I guess I was being somewhat naive ... but that ended when I withdrew the freebies

I didn't object to the Oon putting them up so much as the lack of cross reference and/or links or credit. Ok, fair to assume that he got them from elsewhere and didn't know the source but it was the arsey, insulting attitude he adopted afterwards when he did find out. A simple link to my site would have cleared the matter up quickly and easily.

The reason I raised the issue here originally was that if he is re-distributing my stuff, he could well be doing the same for other material and so it transpired that he IS re-distributing other people's stuff. At first, I must admit that I thought he was claiming the S&S as his own (like he is with other stuff there) but in fairness, after that knee-jerk reaction, I saw that he did say he got them from the net. But as I say, it was his arsey attitude that wrote him off in my books.

FWIW, I am going to try and make my S&S stuff available soon... it's just these pesky paying customers keep asking me for stuff!!!

Steve

eDrummist · Post by **eDrummist** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:01 pm

Hollowsun/Steve,

I think we can all agree that taking someone else's work without permission, and also, not providing the appropriate credit, regardless of whether it was given away free or not, is wrong, pure and simple. Further, Ooon3's response to you on this matter was also clearly wrong. But beyond that, I can't help but wonder whether anyone attained permission to make the Speak and Spell samples from the actual copyright holder, Texas Instruments, in the first place?

I had always guessed that the original samples you distributed were probably not cleared, otherwise, they would likely have not been free (I'm all too aware of the hassle of securing permission from a large corporation is no easy task, as I have worked on both sides of permission requests for intellectual property). Can you clarify?

The concern is, of course, that if someone uses the Speak and Spell samples (or even records the original toy, for that matter) in a song believing s/he has permission to do so, when indeed, s/he does not, s/he would indeed still need to gain permission from the copyright holder, TI before using them, or otherwise, would infringe on TI's copyright.

BTW, I've downloaded a good deal of your stuff over the years, so please don't misunderstand my question as a criticism, it's not. Further, my question applies to any Speak and Spell samples (or anytime someone samples anyone else's copyrighted intellectual property, I want to know if they secured permission so that they, and subsequently, I, are not violating anyone's copyrighted material when using these samples) floating around the Internet. I am thankful for your generosity and had always figured that you made the Speak and Spell library for fun, not worrying about the copyright aspects of such a library. I actually want to use these samples in a silly song I wrote to entertain my kids and the copyright issue had again crossed my mind when I was reading through this thread.

Thanks,
eDrummist

Gregjazz · Post by **Gregjazz** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:42 am

The whole Speak and Spell sampling question reminds me a lot of sampling mellotrons. So many people have sampled mellotrons that their sounds have pretty much become public domain. For that matter, the Amen Break, too...

hollowsun · Post by **hollowsun** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:08 pm

eDrummist wrote:I can't help but wonder whether anyone attained permission to make the Speak and Spell samples from the actual copyright holder, Texas Instruments, in the first place?

I had always guessed that the original samples you distributed were probably not cleared, otherwise, they would likely have not been free. Can you clarify?

Those samples were donated to me by a Hollow Sun regular back in the day. I did try to contact TI but the reaction was "I have no idea what you're talking about" and I got nowhere fast! So I used the 'publish and be damned' approach on the understanding that if there was any objection, I'd withdraw them immediately. There was none then and has been none since.

It's also fair to point out that I didn't just make them available but also provided a fairly comprehensive description of the S&S and its history AND I also gave the contributor full acknowledgement with a link back to his website at the time.

It must also be remembered that this was - what - ten years or so ago and people weren't quite so hung up on copyright back then and, as I say, I didn't just arbitrarily make sounds available but they were part of a bigger exercise that provided quite detailed histories of the instruments ... a bit like Vintage Synth Explorer with audio examples. I never had any trouble and as I explained elsewhere, some people who worked on some of the older bits of kit actually got in touch with me to thank me for breathing new life into their 'babies' so to speak. I had relatives of people involved with the products thanking me for giving their deceased father/brother/whatever something of a tribute as well ... which was nice. And as an example of one offering I made available, I worked with Emmett Chapman over the Stick samples I had because I didn't want to release anything that might adversely affect his sales and he was most agreeable (and a real gentleman ... he actually - in our arrangement - used sections of my description of the instrument in his literature at one point!). And so on.

Maybe the subtle difference in the way that I made the samples available was that it was all done with utmost respect to the original manufacturers or the instruments' designers/engineers/whatever - it wasn't just a list of links for people to plunder. I do know that those histories were used in school and college Music Tech courses and I also know that quite a few of the manufacturers saw them as a kind of promotion for their gear/brand. I can't name names due to NDA but one major Japanese manufacturer actually took me on for some projects because of the quality of some samples of a piece of their gear I made available and the way that I presented them.

eDrummist wrote:The concern is, of course, that if someone uses the Speak and Spell samples (or even records the original toy, for that matter) in a song believing s/he has permission to do so, when indeed, s/he does not, s/he would indeed still need to gain permission from the copyright holder, TI before using them, or otherwise, would infringe on TI's copyright.

Technically yes I suppose but I doubt TI would be in the slightest bit interested - certainly not enough to spend money chasing a potential contravention.

Cheers,

Steve

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