Time Signature Problem

[neueliteratur]

Hello folks,

I have a hard time trying to understand the difference between 2/2, 4/4 and 8/8.

I don't understand the difference.

Someone told me, if the song is in 2/2, it means it's has a faster feel than 4/4. But how? And why isn't it the same as writing that song in 4/4 and set a faster tempo?

I've asked several music teachers about this but their answers don't help much because they're explaining it in the paradigm of someone who has alredy understood it.

And since this place has many intelligent folks who know how to make things clear, I'll ask you.

Thank you.

[Ogg Vorbis]

Hello folks,

I have a hard time trying to understand the difference between 2/2, 4/4 and 8/8.

I don't understand the difference.

Someone told me, if the song is in 2/2, it means it's has a faster feel than 4/4. But how? And why isn't it the same as writing that song in 4/4 and set a faster tempo?

I've asked several music teachers about this but their answers don't help much because they're explaining it in the paradigm of someone who has alredy understood it.

And since this place has many intelligent folks who know how to make things clear, I'll ask you.

Thank you.

Tempo and meter are completely independent. Meaning, that whether a meter is in 3 or 4 or 2 has nothing to do with the tempo (BPM).

Someone who says that 2/2 is slow or fast is just not correct. A piece written in "cut time" (which is 4/4 but felt in 2) can be fast, slow, medium, etc, in tempo.

However, I think there is a quasi-psychological game that composers and arrangers play with performers... For example, whole notes "look" like they should be played slower so if a person wants a piece played slower or "longer" in feel, then they can write in 2/1 or 4/1, etc.

Similarly, 16th notes "look fast" on the page so if you write a composition or arrangement in 2/16, it might inspire a perfomer to move it along a little more.

[Meffy]

Easy test. When you count out the rhythm, does it go (two measures each):

* ONE, two, ONE, two... (two half notes per measure)
* ONE and Two and ONE and Two and... (four quarter notes per measure)
* ONE-a-and-a-Two-a-and-a ONE-a-and-a-Two-a-and-a (eight eighth notes per measure)

ALL CAPS means primary accent, Initial Caps means secondary accent.

[edit] This is a rule of thumb. If we get into all the exceptions and the reasons why you can't do something, you won't do it. Forget the exceptions for now; deal with them when you run into them. The above is a useful approximation that will get you started, after which you'll learn when to go beyond the approximation.

[SpecialSpecimen]

Can you not just explain it in terms of where the music is accentuated?

IiIiIiIi
IiiiIiii
IiiiiiiIiiiiii



I hate thinking about music in such rigid forms but that's how I would understand it.




...also, my music theory kinda sucks.



*beaten

[robogone]

Can you not just explain it in terms of where the music is accentuated?

No, that's not a good approach, as certain styles of music will have emphasis on a different number in the count. You need to really ignore accentuation and look at Time Signature without accentuation.

[jancivil]

Hello folks,

I have a hard time trying to understand the difference between 2/2, 4/4 and 8/8.

I don't understand the difference.

To a machine there is no difference, which has probably occurred to you.
The difference is a musician's interpretation of what you are trying to convey in terms of feel.

Someone told me, if the song is in 2/2, it means it's has a faster feel than 4/4. But how? And why isn't it the same as writing that song in 4/4 and set a faster tempo?

There is a convention which means 2/2 which is given in the chart as "cut time" (the sign is that of 'common time' (meaning 4/4) with a slash thru the 'C'), which you see in marching band music for instance; the indication is for twice as fast as if you saw the same thing in 2/4. It's two *steps*, and it's fast. IE: if the tune was in 2/4 and you see the sign for cut time, you step twice as fast (unless of course a tempo marking moots this somehow).

2/2 is two half note 'beats'. In classical music that might have meant to the composer that the 'harmonic rhythm' will be slower, ie., less movement in terms of things such as chord progressions. It might mean there will be a more florid ornamention at a slower tempo and/or less rigid flow vs. 'just tempo'.

8/8 often will have more exacting subdivions: a very common thing in 8/8 is 3+3+2/8. That's a syncopation in 4/4 which one may indicate by accents. A figure like this tends to be more obvious in 8/8.

It's all contextual.

[neueliteratur]

Oh.. now I seem to get it.

I think my problem came from the fact that I kept considering the time signature as pure mathmatics, when it's actually more subtle than that.

[Meffy]

It might be worth mentioning that two of my music professors at U.Va. used to have nearly violent arguments over the "correct" time signatures for certain pieces of music. Each was certain he was completely right and the other was absolutely wrong. Both were respected and competent experts in the same field. Take from that what you will.

[Nystul]

My university fight songs were written in 2/2 (cut time) with half note = 180 BPM. It is actually a very bizarre feel because you are looking at whole notes and yet they are going by *very* quickly. It is also very rough on the knees.

I guess there is no simple answer, because it is all in the context of the period and style of music. When you are just doing your own music on a DAW, it is pure math and any time signature that will allow you to put notes at the correct subdivisions will do just fine. If you are arranging for a few friends, you can explain to them exactly what you are trying to convey. But if you are arranging sheet music to be played by musicians anywhere, you will have to be aware of the styles and conventions other people are using in similar music and how the musicians are likely to interpret what you write.

[jancivil]

That's one of the reasons for that convention of cut time in marching band. The notes are easier to see; there's automatically only half as many flags, etc...

a lot of people who join have little to no reading experience so it's normal to them. If you've read music before, seeing 'slow' values meaning 'fast' time is a little odd isn't it.



hey is Manic Depression by Hendrix triplets in 3/4 or is it simply 9/8?

[karacha]

2/2 is a simple duple meter. Key word: duple. 2 beats per measure, half-note being the beat.

4/4 is a simple quadruple meter. Key word: quadruple. 4 beats per measure, quarter-note being the beat.

2 or 4 beats per measure is not the same thing, obviously.

[We are talking about medium to medium-fast tempo: no extremes. Because you can write 4/4 in 1/4=250 MM, in which case the whole measure will be conducted in 1 -- 1 measure is one "beat".]


Now, 8/8 can be an asymmetrical meter, and it is used as such very often. Example 8/8 internally divided into 3+3+2 eight-notes, or any other combination you like. Some beats in it are dotted quarters, some are quarter-notes, see? In my example (3+3+2), this is an asymmetrical triple meter -- three beats per measure.

[Ogg Vorbis]

And why isn't it the same as writing that song in 4/4 and set a faster tempo?

Regarding this question...yes, mathmatically 2 bars of 2 should equal 1 bar of 4, right? 2+2=4. So what's the difference?

In metered music (music with a pulse or a beat) usually has strong beats and weak beats. Not all beats are equal importance.

The downbeat is the first beat of each bar. This is usually the strongest beat in every measure where the conductor's pattern falls in a solid, downward stroke and where James Brown goes "uhh!"

Even though a lot of pop and rock, the snare hits on beats 2 and 4, the downbeat (beat 1) is going to be the primary emphasis (think kick drum).

If there is a strong downbeat ever four beats, then it's quite probable that the music is in four. If there's a strong downbeat every three beats, then you're probably in 3, and so on.

[0tiose]

hey is Manic Depression by Hendrix triplets in 3/4 or is it simply 9/8?

Conventional wisdom says triplets in 3/4. The guitar by itself could be counted in 9 if you really wanted to, but the drums & vocals have a pretty solid waltz 3/4 pulse.
In my opinion, its usually best to count in the simplest time signature unless you have a specific reason not to. The classic example is the difference between eight notes in 3/4 and 6/8.
3/4 would be counted ONE-and-Two-and-Three-and
6/8 would be counted ONE-two-three-FOUR-five-six

[jancivil]

hey is Manic Depression by Hendrix triplets in 3/4 or is it simply 9/8?

Conventional wisdom says triplets in 3/4. The guitar by itself could be counted in 9 if you really wanted to, but the drums & vocals have a pretty solid waltz 3/4 pulse.
In my opinion, its usually best to count in the simplest time signature unless you have a specific reason not to. The classic example is the difference between eight notes in 3/4 and 6/8.
3/4 would be counted ONE-and-Two-and-Three-and
6/8 would be counted ONE-two-three-FOUR-five-six

Well, Manic Depression has that opening break in straight 3. The main figure (follow the drums), is one, two, 1-2-3.
If I were teaching the part to a drummer, that's what I'd say.

"Hemiola" is both 3/4 and 6/8. If you were teaching Sondheim and Bernstein's "America" from West Side Story, would you go either/or, or both... typa thing.