Spectrasonics Trilian...(Omnisphere v.1.1 now out with native x64 support!)

[hibidy]

That is starting to look encouraging. For me, the acoustic stuff can be dumbed down (I think someone mentioned a :light: switch of some sort??)

The electric bass stuff is where I drool. Those foderas..........:faint: Oh wow, they have got to be spectacular!

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Well, I'm behind sonkeysankey. He hasn't said anything nasty or troll-like, he's simply entitled to his opinion that he doesn't think Trilian is a necessity, albeit it an opinion that he kind of keeps tainting by going on about synth basses instead of the acoustic/electric stuff which is the real issue here. Although in his defence, Pop/Rock doesn't even really need much realism in the bass sometimes. Most fans of the genre won't notice the difference with round-robins and clever multiple sample special effects, especially in a mix - it just gets buried - you can barely hear the subtleties of a bass part if at all. That is the point that sonkeysankey has made, and it is valid regardless of the fever currently surrounding a new product.

However, if multi-sampled high-end bass VST instruments are your thing and you want to create as realistic a bass part as possible, with minimum programming, that sound amazing when solo'd, I'm sure Trilian is the best thing on the market; it just isn't as essential as many other things that would be required for a piece of Pop/Rock music to be any good - that's before a listener tries to hear any intricacy in the bass part and that may be something that can't even be heard because of the busyness of the mix!!

i appreciate the clarity here....

but again it is down to you believing that these nuances and round-robins can't be heard in a mix

some of us can hear them......and appreciate them.....

in a busy mix, they could be argues a little extravagant possibly but you would probably look elsewhere if you didn't consider these subtle differences important

nothing is a necessity.....but so what ???

a very skilled furniture maker might make beautifully crafted chairs...but at the end of the day, most people are gonna sit their fat asses down on them and not give them a second thought....however for others it is a work of art....

if a track has real drums (or detailed drum samples)....a real guitar (something i have yet to see anything really convincing in sample form)....various other tracks from real instruments, then you bolt on a dimensionless, dynamic-less bass sound it's gonna stick out...just like in the house full of exquisite furniture but the dining chairs from ikea......

"it just isn't as essential as many other things that would be required for a piece of Pop/Rock music to be any good"

in rock and pop (if not electronic based) there are indeed many things that are important......but i gave a couple of examples earlier by 'nirvana' and the 'pixies'....there are tons of others that are rock, but don't go 'hell for leather' the whole time....there is great dynamic contrast that allows for many nuances to be heard...even in the denser sections, the subtleties of different bass hits can be distinguished.......

if you can't distinguish them, it doesn't matter....the instrument is gonna be a unnnecessary extravagance....but for those who can, it's gonna be pretty desirable

the thing with sonkeysankey is he's trying to tell people they don't need/shouldn't want it based on the fact that HE doesn't need or want it.....that, too, based on the fact that none of the music he listens to is created by artists who would want or need it

he wants synth basses....probably has a ton of them already and doesn't want this vst....so why say anything at all ????

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

This is a forum where hopefully we can discuss whether a product suits our needs or not. I'm quite disappointed with the lack of intelligence or rather should I say debate over the merits of this product depending on the genre an individual is working on. If this was a Trilian drooling thread then fair enough but it's a reasoned debate about the necessity of the product - some don't see a need for it in their own work and are keen to express that on here to ensure their voice is heard and 'to do unto others as you would have done unto yourself' - i.e. those not in the know have both sides of the argument and all the information to make the correct judgement based on their own circumstances.

I'm sure it's a wonderful product but it's not for me and I'm sure some others who should be able to express so on here without getting attacked for being ignorant or whatever else.

this thread was started neither as a drooling thread or one to argue the necessity

why bother coming into a thread and say i don't need it, it doesn't fit into my music style and therefore it is unnecessary ???? surely if you felt that you would just not bother

the thread to enter with this opinion would be one entitled "trillian....the only bass you'll ever need"...or "trillian...this thing is a true necessity"

i have no need in my life for belief in god....but i don't drop in on religious threads and tell people that what they believe is unnecessary or wrong, based on my outlook......it would jut be trouble-making...but i might be inclined to join a religious thread such as "any non-believers out there wanna share their disbelief"

**disclaimer ...the religion analogy might be unfortunate if people seize on the opportunity to imply spectrasonics vst customers as acting like religious zealots...it ain the case

once again...what is the point of trying over and over to explain you don't need something....WE HEARD

remember you are defending someone who launched into another tirade of nonsense because someone dared to compliment eric on some well presented videos, recorded on a resolution that looked good..he is right...hd , cameras can be bought cheap....but what is his motivation to make the point....he is really clutching at comments and turning them around to assert, as in the omnisphere thread, that this is about fanboyism as opposed to people who appreciate a great sound/sample/instrument when they hear it

and, for the record, i see a lot of intelligence in this thread

[Sascha Franck]

Thanks for the CPU load infos, guys.
Hm, I already have a 500GB drive in my Macbook, but there's not all that much free space on it anymore... might be fine for 36GB, though (I don't want any of my important samples to sit on external drives, I'm on the road too often). I should probably keep the pr0n on another drive...

Another quick question: The acoustic bass sounds expressive as hell, Erics demo really sorta blew me away - now, are there any plans to add a bowed bass? Not a dealbreaker for me at all, but I just happen to love bowed double basses, and mixing one coming from another library in certainly won't get you ideal results.

- Sascha

[iain_morland]

Thanks, some good sounds there (maybe the high-hats are a touch bright, though? - at least on my speakers) But it's cool how Omnisphere does both very electric synth sounds and also acoustic sounds.

Yes, it's amazing. Rather like the way Sampletank does both very electric sounds and also acoustic sounds. And umpteen other synth/samplers out there...

God, you're so grumpy. I was just paying someone a compliment on his music and remarking on the tools used. Cheer up miserychops!

[hibidy]

I think someone made a booboo

[benjamind]

Now, for the ultimate test...

Can you do this in Trilian?

Play a soft fingered note, wait half a second, slide down a few frets, hammer-on a few frets up, and slide up a few frets, hammer-on a few frets down, do some gentle tapping on notes in between while progressively muting the string, then slide down to the bottom note of the string and finish it off with a pull-off.

I know you CAN do this on a real bass. In fact I have done precisely that in high school.

Can you do it in Trilian?

While sample-based instruments have vastly improved over the last few years, they still cannot (and never will) match a real instrument.

Samplemodeling has pulled off some amazing high brass and saxophone instruments and they are the only sample-based instruments that come close to the instruments they represent. WIVI has done an outstanding job on woodwinds, brass and saxophones too.

I'm sorry to say but proper physical modelling is truly the only way forward. Physical modeling, done correctly with painstaking attention to detail (think BlueReeds and GlueReeds), will effectively relegate sample libraries into dust gathering obsolescence as there would be simply no point in using them.


For those who don't understand what I'm on about - Physical modeling is the computational reproduction of a sound through either modal synthesis or reactive synthesis - the latter being capable, if required, of far more articulation and therefore far superior. Sample libraries are merely the triggering of recordings of an instrument which can occur from keys being pressed, keyswitches, and perhaps scripting (depending on the sampler/plugin). They will sound correct. The timbre is not the problem. The behaviour, on the other hand, is a very serious problem and this is where samples just cannot do it.

Samples seem fine, until you try to do things as you would on a real instrument, eg. on a bass guitar you can perform as many slides as you like, you can run your finger up and down the neck like a maniac, perform some hammer-ons, and progressively mute the vibrating string while you are doing all these things, and then finish off the performance with a nice quick pull-off after sliding down to the nut. On a bass guitar, you should hear some hand noises and squeaks during the performance.

It's when you think about what you can do on a real bass guitar and try to recreate that sound with samples, no matter how good or complex the samples are, that things start to fall apart.

Physical models, if they are detailed and accurate enough, can recreate the sound of the instrument on the fly, depending on the "reaction" of various elements. In this case, it could be strings, conical/straight bores, lips, reeds, tines, hammers, mallets, pickups, soundboards, acoustic damping, muting, materials like glass/wood/metal/rubber/plastic, etc. The elements must be detailed and reasonably accurate in how they are modeled, otherwise the physical modeling will not produce the desired sound. There are quite a few virtual instruments that use physical models (AAS Strum Electric, Lounge Lizard, for example) but the models they use are not as detailed or as accurate as they could be (perhaps a limitation of the modeling architecture, design, etc) and that is why they do not quite get there, soundwise.

At this point in time the majority of physical models are thought to be lacking in many ways, and of course, this is why most people have a very bad perception of physical modeling, thinking that physical models sound fake. Yes, you are right, and I agree with you, most of them in fact do sound fake. However, this bad perception of physical modeling is going to change fairly quickly, and is perhaps already changing. I point out that BlueReeds and GlueReeds are two perfect examples of why physical modeling will eventually render samples obsolete.

Ben

[standalone]

Well, I'm behind sonkeysankey. He hasn't said anything nasty or troll-like

I think it's a big piece of bloated crap and Persing's days as a master sound designer are over.

I see where this guy is coming from! Bloatisphere by name, Bloati by nature!

Oh.

[spectrum]

Now, for the ultimate test...

Can you do this in Trilian?

Play a soft fingered note, wait half a second, slide down a few frets, hammer-on a few frets up, and slide up a few frets, hammer-on a few frets down, do some gentle tapping on notes in between while progressively muting the string, then slide down to the bottom note of the string and finish it off with a pull-off.

I know you CAN do this on a real bass. In fact I have done precisely that in high school.

Can you do it in Trilian?

Actually yes...you can hear me doing that type of thing in the videos for yourself.

[Gamma-UT]

Play a soft fingered note, wait half a second, slide down a few frets, hammer-on a few frets up, and slide up a few frets, hammer-on a few frets down, do some gentle tapping on notes in between while progressively muting the string, then slide down to the bottom note of the string and finish it off with a pull-off.

Find me a physically modelled synth that does that today and I'm there with a credit card. I like PM instruments like Sculpture and String Studio but, to my knowledge, there is nothing on the market that will react the same way as a physical instrument played the way you describe. There is a yawning gap between the promise of PM instruments and what they can achieve in practice. They make for very expressive instruments just not ones that compare with real instruments all that often. Other than the problem of sympathetic resonance (which Pianoteq attacks), an electric piano is relatively simple* compared with an exposed string instrument because the environment below the soundboard is reasonably controlled.

The Scarbee instruments for Kontakt can, I know, do a lot of this. The articulation system in Trilian is different and I've not explored it but, again, it will recognise a hammer-on and pull-off situation if you play legato.

Progressive muting? Not sure, but that's the kind of thing you can pull off with a sampled instrument by mapping a controller to a bunch of samples or simply by manipulating the envelope (depending on your passion for absolute realism). Kontakt and Trillian have release samples, so the pull off shouldn't be that big an issue (you can hear this on the upright bass quite clearly).

* Not easy, just simpler than trying to account for someone touching the strings while they are playing.

[christianmusicmaker]

What are you talking about? What on Earth was so special about the video production quality? You have obviously been living under a rock for the past year or so. Virtually all camcorders on the market are HD nowadays. And they didn't even use a tripod!

Can we just leave this video discussion alone please. You don't like the videos or video quality, don't feel they are anything special or feel they could have been any other way e.t.c...that is totally fine with me, but can we please just agree to disagree. Sorry. I see no reason to get into a fight over the quality of Trilian videos. There are far more important things in life. I really like the videos, you don't. That is 100% fine with me. I can leave it at that. Can you please do the same thing?

As for the discussion about sampling in detail...I see no issue with the discussion (I doubt Eric is bothered about that as well) its how some posts have been made that I see no need for. Anyone can make a point but surely without needless hostility.

Yes, I agree - I take it you are talking about the post where somebody told me to "kill myself". .

I was actually referring to your posts.

The comment ddash made about "killing yourself" was wrong IMO. I doubt he literally meant it (personally) but it was wrong either way IMO. But I think there is also something wrong in not taking into account what led to his statement...your comments and the tone of them.

The first part of that ddash post was this...

I dont understand the people bashing trilian. if you dont like trilian or what it has to offer just dont get it,simple as that.

He was reacting to the tone of your posts but I think he took it too far with a reference to "killing" but even Eric asked of you "why all the negativity?". Do you honestly think Eric and others who have posted about the tone of your posts are just making it all up here? Seriously???

I didn't see any hostility in MY posts - just simple statements of my unhostile opinions on the lack of necessity for MOST musicians to use Trilian.

I cannot believe for a minute you honestly think you have not in anyway been hostile to anyone on this thread. Clearly you have IMO but here are just two examples of your comments (to me), just in case you honestly do not believe it.

"You have obviously been living under a rock for the past year or so."

"Did you have a 'Rapture' while watching it?"

I mean...do you really honestly have to add those sort of comments to make your point? Do you honestly think there is nothing wrong with that? If you do then I am not sure how you really expect to avoid a hostile response to those comments.

I think any Dev knows only too well that some level of negative feedback can be very useful indeed. Eric IMO is fully aware of that and chose to side step as best as possible the tone of some of your posts and still read them and responded.

I personally read a great deal of negative feedback on products (especially product forums) as it can be revealing. Sometimes more so than positive feedback.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion but after the first 3 or 4 posts of yours here where you made it crystal clear you will not be buying Trilian it now appears as if you have gone far beyond telling us why you will not buy it and have taken on a strange responsibility of trying to convince others not to buy it. It's as if you feel you have to convince the rest of use who like the product that we are wasting our money.

Really if it is so utterly pointless a product for you...how many posts do you think it will take to change Erics and our minds about Trilian? Some of us like it some don't. Just like any other product out there. But really to spend so much time on something that you have made 100% clear you have 0% interest in, and even appear to have a very deep dislike for, is completely baffling IMO.

But hey its up to you of course if you still want to convince people who are more than intelligent enough to make up their own minds about Trilian that they are making a big mistake if they buy it.

We get your point. There is no way you will be buying it. You don't want us to buy it either. Ok. Many of us do not agree and have bought it or will buy it. Why not leave it there?

[kotori]

I'm sorry to say but proper physical modelling is truly the only way forward. Physical modeling, done correctly with painstaking attention to detail (think BlueReeds and GlueReeds), will effectively relegate sample libraries into dust gathering obsolescence as there would be simply no point in using them.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised either if people in the future look back nostalgicly on those old times when people used samples, but we are not there yet. Whatever you choose you get a comprimise betwen flexibility and realistic sound. I also think that physical modeling can contribute most to bowed string instrument and wind instruments where there is a continuous and varying pressure. You can of course to some degree exercise continuous control over the string vibration energy of a bass string too, but overall it's much easier to capture the sound of a bass using samples than what it is for say a cello or an oboe.

Play a soft fingered note, wait half a second, slide down a few frets, hammer-on a few frets up, and slide up a few frets, hammer-on a few frets down, do some gentle tapping on notes in between while progressively muting the string, then slide down to the bottom note of the string and finish it off with a pull-off.

There are several virtual basses capable of this from Orange Tree, Scarbee, and now Spectrasonics, etc. Progressive muting is a different story though. One could try to use filters to mimic the effect, but as long as you play back a single sample it will always be a bit too unflexible to truly capture the real sound. I think it would be possible to do it using the techniques that Sample Modeling use though.

Even without synthesis based on physical modeling it's still possible to do some physical modeling when using samples. In the bass scripts that I have written there are lots of techniques and adjustments based on observations of how a real bass behaves. In the end though I think the playability and ease with which you can trigger different articulations can be the most important thing.

[Dr.Wu]

cant believe we are still discussing the need for detailed bass.
Anyways-here is another piece i did yesterday using the great Retro bass in Trilian and the rather small but still very effective Fretless Expressivo for the melody part.
Chords are a combi of Fretless Harmonics and 8 string bass run thru some of the onboard effects and filters.
As Eric said in one of the videos-Trilian is much more than just bass. Obviously too much for some people to grasp......


http://vimeo.com/7410194

[any1particular]

cant believe we are still discussing the need for detailed bass.
Anyways-here is another piece i did yesterday using the great Retro bass in Trilian and the rather small but still very effective Fretless Expressivo for the melody part.
Chords are a combi of Fretless Harmonics and 8 string bass run thru some of the onboard effects and filters.
As Eric said in one of the videos-Trilian is much more than just bass. Obviously too much for some people to grasp......


http://vimeo.com/7410194

Now that's what I'm talken bout ya'll!

'Tis fun the hear what peeps are doing with this inspired software.

Thanks for sharing this sweeeet track Dr Hans (is in da house ya'll)!!!

Apparently the Folks at Synthtopia like what you've put together as well!

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2009/ ... ectrilian/

[RawTheory]

Trilian looks amazing but I'm no proper musician and getting this to sound good in my hands might be wishful thinkin...