How does REAPER do it?

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eduardo_b wrote:
Beazlebug wrote:at some point surely someone one at Steinberg, Cakewalk or whereever will have to admit that there nothing left to add. Audio production software can't indefinitely be improved can it? In the end it's just chucking unnecessary stuff in there (a new synth, effect etc)
I actually think this is what determines the product cycles -- coming up with ideas "big" enough to use in marketing for another round of upgrades. Packing DAWs with instruments, samples and other paraphernalia, plus adding "features" that not even 5 percent of customers will use or care about, is what happens when products mature and the revenue streams begins to cool.

What I think I am seeing is a proliferation of less expensive versions with the stuff people really do use at least 80 percent of the time. I'm guessing the profit margin is lower, but the price points are much more attractive to buyers who aren't going to spend $400 for a host. Of course, there are always some who disparage these versions. "Who can create music with only 24 or 32 tracks?" They'd be surprised.
I think it's just competition stoking the flames of competition because if they didn't, sales would stagnate and profits diminish. Music software companies are quite happy that the market for music software continues to grow, and that new users, if not lifetime users, are being born every day. And the hardware companies that managed to survive the success of the software companies have created hardware solutions to complement the software. Indeed, many hardware companies have created their own software products.

Folks are always moaning about how contemporary music sucks, but part of that is due to the mentality that many DAW owners see themselves as producers. How many of them are musicians, and how many know how to work with other musicians? Very few, relatively speaking. They have their bass plugins, but do they know how to play bass or anything beyond the requirements of a house tune? Few do, and even though the argument might be that knowing how to play house music basslines is all that one needs to know how to do, it says very little, and quite a lot, about a person's musicianship. Yet folks are cranking out tracks where they play everything, where playing the oud seems possible because there's a sample library for that. (Just don't ask a professional oud player for his or her opinion.) In other words, musicianship is less of a requirement than it used to be because many people are learning that musicianship is not important. Hey, and if you can't play anything well, just make droning, burbly, granulated noises with some semblance of a beat, or no beat at all. There is an audience for that, even if it is made up of just yourself.

How does this relate to Reaper and DAWs in general? An important reason why 4-tracks were popular was because one didn't need an engineering degree in order to make multitrack recordings. Instead of bouncing tracks from one cassette player to another, like I did before getting a 4-track, one had four free tracks - enough to record a four-piece ensemble with much less tape noise. Making music at that time still depended very much on working with other musicians, but MIDI machines were already established and linking them with desktop computers was catching on very fast. Now it's all about distractions. Live distracts from Digital Performer which distracts from Logic which distracts from Cubase which distracts from Reaper which, like ProTools, distracts from all of the above and everything else.

Distraction is what sells. You need this function, that feature, this doohickey, you need all of these things which at one time didn't even exist! Yet the basic functions to record music - music of any kind - can, with little effort, be found for free for any computer platform. Basic and advanced timesaving features that improved over professional analog recording systems, and manual editing systems, are available in free DAWs and their low cost counterparts. No DAW has everything, and analog systems had much, much less. Back in the day, a person involved in audio productions didn't try to do everything alone, like many, many people attempt to do today. Though, today's seasoned professionals seem to know better -- mostly.

But that leaves everybody else, claiming a need for this, that, and your grandpa's 1965 Chevy Chevelle SS Malibu Covertible. So, what do you expect the major DAW companies to do? Of course, they are going to sell you your dreams, and they are going to tell you that it's the best, most innovative feature that the universe has ever witnessed, even if it's just a hot air balloon full of donkey poo. And - what do you do? You fall for it. You eat it all up, spending all the money that have and don't have. And if you don't have any money or anybody else's money or money that doesn't exist until you spend it, you descend into a private, perhaps public at times, little Hell of your own making. That's what you do. And those companies keep on torturing you by cranking out the shit that you say you need when you have everything that you really need to make audio recordings right at your fingertips; with plenty to choose from without having to spend your grandpa's last Winged Liberty Head dime.

Some folks complain endlessly about about features that they love and hate, but which hardly anybody else really cares about, and folks complain about everything else, too! Demand after demand are met by DAW companies, large and small, yet the needs of the many are never met. Never! "IS THERE ANYTHING LEFT TO ADD?" Bet your ass that there is. As long as companies keep cranking it out, as long as you are never satisfied with what you have or with what anybody else has, and you continue to dream of the "perfect" system and let the whole wide world know about it...... and as long as you can create money simply by spending it before it even exists -- you would do well to bet your ass that companies will continue to add things called "features" to their existing, and future, DAW products. You will live a long, long time if you bet your ass on that certainty.

The more important question is: Will you make better music knowing that you have all of that stuff at your disposal? If you are not making good recordings by now, recordings that you are satisfied with, regardless of features that your DAW has or doesn't have, what the hell are you doing with your time on this Earth anyway? Shouldn't you be doing something else that doesn't demand so much of you before you even make the slightest, self-satisfied, bit-crushed bleep?
I Music.

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mauseoleum wrote:
Questions and questions plain as your nose
But who would believe a little rose?
Winners and losers in love with themselves
No santa claus no happy elves
In this smoking gun existence
It gets harder to unwind
I'll just eat my breakfast
Try to keep my questions
Starving all night
once in a while it's nice to read some fragile ego quoting nice sentences. the fragile ego doesn't want to answer a question - he just wants to shine a bit.

To the OP: Reaper is a superb host which some like and some don't. The developers, rare down here, decided to release their software with an extremely musician's-friendly license scheme. There were times, not quite as conservative and full of fragile egos like these years of course, where this wouldn't have led to discussions, but to a "thanks very much, mate!". And of course those times will come again, software masterminds who make music will release nice things for musicians, musicians help and will carry on to help building those things with advice/suggestions.
all in all it's rather easy to understand.

And all who don't like cubase or cannot afford it, don't use Cubase (we are KVR, so let's forget for a while that 50-90% of people use cracked software). And all who don't like Logic...and Sonar....and Orion....and Reaper.... easy. Others use it. I am just really happy Reaper was created :). I would not want to persuade anyone to be happy about exactly that, too. It's just superb that it exists.

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Do you folks have anything interesting to say? Otherwise I'll just sign off this thread.

- Sascha
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.

Post

Sascha Franck wrote:Do you folks have anything interesting to say? Otherwise I'll just sign off this thread.

- Sascha
If you have to ask Sascha :shrug:
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.

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Ok, "unwatching" this one.

- S.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.

Post

Sascha Franck wrote:Do you folks have anything interesting to say? Otherwise I'll just sign off this thread.

- Sascha
Honestly? Nope. Doubtful I'll do any better in any other thread thought. :hihi:
No, that wasn't me.

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Religion, Reaper, whatever. The thread is not long enough.

KEEP GOING!
Music is something you DO. Spend time, not money.
http://www.myspace.com/skipkent
http://soundcloud.com/skipkent

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skipkent wrote:Religion, Reaper, whatever. The thread is not long enough.

KEEP GOING!
But would you say this thread is bloated??? :lol:

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Pat2070 wrote:
skipkent wrote:Religion, Reaper, whatever. The thread is not long enough.

KEEP GOING!
But would you say this thread is bloated??? :lol:
Got a nice email from Ableton saying they have upgraded my 'Live lite 6'
to the latest version 8. The archive for the mini Ableton is just
a hair under 600 meg :-o :lol: I wonder what features the Reaper crew could come
up with to use an extra 590 meg of code? :)

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skipkent wrote:Religion, Reaper, whatever. The thread is not long enough.

KEEP GOING!
yeah but you know what they say, "give any fool enough thread and they will hang themselves" :shrug:
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.

Post

Ubiety wrote: The more important question is: Will you make better music knowing that you have all of that stuff at your disposal? If you are not making good recordings by now, recordings that you are satisfied with, regardless of features that your DAW has or doesn't have, what the hell are you doing with your time on this Earth anyway? Shouldn't you be doing something else that doesn't demand so much of you before you even make the slightest, self-satisfied, bit-crushed bleep?
Oh come on... you're right, of course, but where's the fun in that? Some people play World of Warcraft, some play with miniature trains, some collect DVDs like there's no tomorrow, some pimp their car, and some buy plugins, skim through presets, and concoct quaint little loops'n'arps in their free time while arguing endlessly about the length and circumference of their, er, DAW. Real musicians making real music (even using electronic means) will always be important; the others can go another few rounds over cubase this, reaper that. And why not? It can be a fun and diverting pastime. :wink:

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glokraw wrote:The archive for the mini Ableton is just
a hair under 600 meg :-o :lol: I wonder what features the Reaper crew could come
up with to use an extra 590 meg of code? :)
A relatively small amount of that extra space is for features and the majority is for the bundled content. It actually seems like all the instruments are included in the Live Lite download because you can preview clips made with them, but they aren't insertable into a project.

Post

Ubiety wrote:
eduardo_b wrote:
Beazlebug wrote:at some point surely someone one at Steinberg, Cakewalk or whereever will have to admit that there nothing left to add. Audio production software can't indefinitely be improved can it? In the end it's just chucking unnecessary stuff in there (a new synth, effect etc)
I actually think this is what determines the product cycles -- coming up with ideas "big" enough to use in marketing for another round of upgrades. Packing DAWs with instruments, samples and other paraphernalia, plus adding "features" that not even 5 percent of customers will use or care about, is what happens when products mature and the revenue streams begins to cool.

What I think I am seeing is a proliferation of less expensive versions with the stuff people really do use at least 80 percent of the time. I'm guessing the profit margin is lower, but the price points are much more attractive to buyers who aren't going to spend $400 for a host. Of course, there are always some who disparage these versions. "Who can create music with only 24 or 32 tracks?" They'd be surprised.
I think it's just competition stoking the flames of competition because if they didn't, sales would stagnate and profits diminish. Music software companies are quite happy that the market for music software continues to grow, and that new users, if not lifetime users, are being born every day. And the hardware companies that managed to survive the success of the software companies have created hardware solutions to complement the software. Indeed, many hardware companies have created their own software products.

Folks are always moaning about how contemporary music sucks, but part of that is due to the mentality that many DAW owners see themselves as producers. How many of them are musicians, and how many know how to work with other musicians? Very few, relatively speaking. They have their bass plugins, but do they know how to play bass or anything beyond the requirements of a house tune? Few do, and even though the argument might be that knowing how to play house music basslines is all that one needs to know how to do, it says very little, and quite a lot, about a person's musicianship. Yet folks are cranking out tracks where they play everything, where playing the oud seems possible because there's a sample library for that. (Just don't ask a professional oud player for his or her opinion.) In other words, musicianship is less of a requirement than it used to be because many people are learning that musicianship is not important. Hey, and if you can't play anything well, just make droning, burbly, granulated noises with some semblance of a beat, or no beat at all. There is an audience for that, even if it is made up of just yourself.

How does this relate to Reaper and DAWs in general? An important reason why 4-tracks were popular was because one didn't need an engineering degree in order to make multitrack recordings. Instead of bouncing tracks from one cassette player to another, like I did before getting a 4-track, one had four free tracks - enough to record a four-piece ensemble with much less tape noise. Making music at that time still depended very much on working with other musicians, but MIDI machines were already established and linking them with desktop computers was catching on very fast. Now it's all about distractions. Live distracts from Digital Performer which distracts from Logic which distracts from Cubase which distracts from Reaper which, like ProTools, distracts from all of the above and everything else.

Distraction is what sells. You need this function, that feature, this doohickey, you need all of these things which at one time didn't even exist! Yet the basic functions to record music - music of any kind - can, with little effort, be found for free for any computer platform. Basic and advanced timesaving features that improved over professional analog recording systems, and manual editing systems, are available in free DAWs and their low cost counterparts. No DAW has everything, and analog systems had much, much less. Back in the day, a person involved in audio productions didn't try to do everything alone, like many, many people attempt to do today. Though, today's seasoned professionals seem to know better -- mostly.

But that leaves everybody else, claiming a need for this, that, and your grandpa's 1965 Chevy Chevelle SS Malibu Covertible. So, what do you expect the major DAW companies to do? Of course, they are going to sell you your dreams, and they are going to tell you that it's the best, most innovative feature that the universe has ever witnessed, even if it's just a hot air balloon full of donkey poo. And - what do you do? You fall for it. You eat it all up, spending all the money that have and don't have. And if you don't have any money or anybody else's money or money that doesn't exist until you spend it, you descend into a private, perhaps public at times, little Hell of your own making. That's what you do. And those companies keep on torturing you by cranking out the shit that you say you need when you have everything that you really need to make audio recordings right at your fingertips; with plenty to choose from without having to spend your grandpa's last Winged Liberty Head dime.

Some folks complain endlessly about about features that they love and hate, but which hardly anybody else really cares about, and folks complain about everything else, too! Demand after demand are met by DAW companies, large and small, yet the needs of the many are never met. Never! "IS THERE ANYTHING LEFT TO ADD?" Bet your ass that there is. As long as companies keep cranking it out, as long as you are never satisfied with what you have or with what anybody else has, and you continue to dream of the "perfect" system and let the whole wide world know about it...... and as long as you can create money simply by spending it before it even exists -- you would do well to bet your ass that companies will continue to add things called "features" to their existing, and future, DAW products. You will live a long, long time if you bet your ass on that certainty.

The more important question is: Will you make better music knowing that you have all of that stuff at your disposal? If you are not making good recordings by now, recordings that you are satisfied with, regardless of features that your DAW has or doesn't have, what the hell are you doing with your time on this Earth anyway? Shouldn't you be doing something else that doesn't demand so much of you before you even make the slightest, self-satisfied, bit-crushed bleep?

You are very wise TEACHER.
My issue is the damn computer to run the DAW on.
All I need is a stable vst environment with a sexy GUI, and I'm good.

Post

Hink wrote:
skipkent wrote:Religion, Reaper, whatever. The thread is not long enough.

KEEP GOING!
yeah but you know what they say, "give any fool enough thread and they will hang themselves" :shrug:
Yep, that's generally true of fool-related disasters; the fool stands among the dead. Wasn't true for Jonestown, though.
Last edited by Ubiety on Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I Music.

Post

captain caveman wrote:
glokraw wrote:The archive for the mini Ableton is just
a hair under 600 meg :-o :lol: I wonder what features the Reaper crew could come
up with to use an extra 590 meg of code? :)
A relatively small amount of that extra space is for features and the majority is for the bundled content. It actually seems like all the instruments are included in the Live Lite download because you can preview clips made with them, but they aren't insertable into a project.
First thing I did when I updated my Live Lite 4 was delete all the bloat. all I want is the bare bones program, I'll make my own music thanks Ableton!!! :)

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