hello! im just wondering if these chords are called diminished?
for example: E5,D5,C5 etc...
i would like to find the scales for those kinds of chords,
http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano/
you can probably find it there in the scales list! i just dont know what the scale is called so can you help me?
also what is this kind of scale called -> C9,E9,D9 etc..
and isnt diminished chords more "evil"
and minor more "sad" chords?
THANK YOU in advance! =)
what is this scale called -> "E5"? E diminished scale? HELP
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- KVRer
- 14 posts since 3 Nov, 2009
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- KVRAF
- 2118 posts since 1 Apr, 2004 from Athens, Greece
E5, D5, etc, are often called "power chords". They are not diminished since they only have the root and the perfect (not diminished) fifth. So E5 only has two notes, E and B. Of course since it only has two notes, any scale that has these could be played over it and the vast majority of scales does have these two notes.
C9 is not a scale, it's a chord that has the root (C), major third (E), perfect fifth (G), minor seventh (Bb) and major ninth (D). Most used scale over it is C Mixolydian which has the notes: C D E F G A Bb.
C9 is not a scale, it's a chord that has the root (C), major third (E), perfect fifth (G), minor seventh (Bb) and major ninth (D). Most used scale over it is C Mixolydian which has the notes: C D E F G A Bb.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 14 posts since 3 Nov, 2009
oh thank you so much!! that was exactly what is was wondering!!geroyannis wrote:E5, D5, etc, are often called "power chords". They are not diminished since they only have the root and the perfect (not diminished) fifth. So E5 only has two notes, E and B. Of course since it only has two notes, any scale that has these could be played over it and the vast majority of scales does have these two notes.
C9 is not a scale, it's a chord that has the root (C), major third (E), perfect fifth (G), minor seventh (Bb) and major ninth (D). Most used scale over it is C Mixolydian which has the notes: C D E F G A Bb.
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- KVRAF
- 2285 posts since 20 Dec, 2002 from The Benighted States of Trumpistan
Hmm... where to begin... you're basically asking for a complete treatise on harmony here.
A "5" (or "power")chord is just the root and the fifth of the chord; in fact, since it's only two notes (a dyad), it isn't actually a chord at all. A diminished chord is the root, minor third, and diminished fifth of the chord. A "9" chord adds the 7th and 9th (= the 2nd) of the chord. So, E5 = E-B, E dim = E-G-Bb, E9 = E-G#-B-D-F#.
Yes, minor chords -- root, minor third, and fifth -- are usually considered "sad," and diminished chords "evil." That's because the minor third and diminished fifth are out of tune with the overtones of the root (so are the major third and perfect fifth, but they're much, much closer).
You can use any scale or mode against a chord that includes the relevant tones. For example, in common Western practice -- by no means the only! -- you could use an E Major or E minor scale against E5, E Lochrian mode (= F Major scale) against E diminished, and E Major against E9.
Confusing and complex? Yep. That's why it's usual to pick a scale for a song (or a section of a song) and stick to notes and chords that are found in that scale. If your key is A Major, you'd play an A major scale against, say, any D Major or G diminished chords in that song. But you don't have to; you can respond to the chord, not the key like a jazz guy, and play a D Major scale against any D Major chord, even if that kind of erodes the overall A Major tonality.
(Of course, in jazz, you can use any scale against any chord whatsoever, and somebody will invent a theoretical framework to justify it.
)
Anyway, you'll have to study harmony for this to make any kind of sense, but I hope I was able to give you something useful.
A "5" (or "power")chord is just the root and the fifth of the chord; in fact, since it's only two notes (a dyad), it isn't actually a chord at all. A diminished chord is the root, minor third, and diminished fifth of the chord. A "9" chord adds the 7th and 9th (= the 2nd) of the chord. So, E5 = E-B, E dim = E-G-Bb, E9 = E-G#-B-D-F#.
Yes, minor chords -- root, minor third, and fifth -- are usually considered "sad," and diminished chords "evil." That's because the minor third and diminished fifth are out of tune with the overtones of the root (so are the major third and perfect fifth, but they're much, much closer).
You can use any scale or mode against a chord that includes the relevant tones. For example, in common Western practice -- by no means the only! -- you could use an E Major or E minor scale against E5, E Lochrian mode (= F Major scale) against E diminished, and E Major against E9.
Confusing and complex? Yep. That's why it's usual to pick a scale for a song (or a section of a song) and stick to notes and chords that are found in that scale. If your key is A Major, you'd play an A major scale against, say, any D Major or G diminished chords in that song. But you don't have to; you can respond to the chord, not the key like a jazz guy, and play a D Major scale against any D Major chord, even if that kind of erodes the overall A Major tonality.
(Of course, in jazz, you can use any scale against any chord whatsoever, and somebody will invent a theoretical framework to justify it.
)Anyway, you'll have to study harmony for this to make any kind of sense, but I hope I was able to give you something useful.
Wait... loot _then_ burn? D'oh!
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
theory is nothing but frameworks invented to justify something which somebody figured worked.
"...in D minor which is the saddest of all keys, I find" Nigel Tufnel.
To say that a sound is 'sad' because of some half-digested understanding of acoustics is a little absurd.
Music that is 'sad' is down to subjective experience of certain phenomena, say in a certain context & ofttimes amounts to little more than a conditioned response to it. A minor third has no inherent emotional content.
"...in D minor which is the saddest of all keys, I find" Nigel Tufnel.
To say that a sound is 'sad' because of some half-digested understanding of acoustics is a little absurd.
Music that is 'sad' is down to subjective experience of certain phenomena, say in a certain context & ofttimes amounts to little more than a conditioned response to it. A minor third has no inherent emotional content.
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- KVRian
- 797 posts since 23 Apr, 2009
But it could be said as most of the human population is musically conditioned, that when you say "a minor chord is usually considered more sombre than a major one" you don't have to the caveat "given the subjective nature of reality and human conditioning". 
There's something to dissonance and negative emotion, even if it is conditioning.
Nigel's different minor keys are a bit different, as the intervals are identical.
There's something to dissonance and negative emotion, even if it is conditioning. Nigel's different minor keys are a bit different, as the intervals are identical.
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- KVRist
- 364 posts since 15 Aug, 2009
When I was a young child I used to go to a Baptist Church that could make a C major, F major, G major chord progression sound like a funeral dirge. lolTankEyes wrote:But it could be said as most of the human population is musically conditioned, that when you say "a minor chord is usually considered more sombre than a major one" you don't have to the caveat "given the subjective nature of reality and human conditioning".
Nigel's different minor keys are a bit different, as the intervals are identical.
I agree with you though that the average Western civilization person has been acclimated to hear a major chord as a happy chord and a minor chord as a somber chord--and to gravitate toward perfect fourths/fifths and major/minor thirds.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
To say that 'a minor chord is usually considered more sombre by...' isn't an unreasonable thing to say I think.TankEyes wrote:But it could be said as most of the human population is musically conditioned, that when you say "a minor chord is usually considered more sombre than a major one" you don't have to the caveat "given the subjective nature of reality and human conditioning".
Nigel's different minor keys are a bit different, as the intervals are identical.
But, I could give you hundreds of concrete examples to disprove it completely.
I saw it asserted here that a minor third is a dissonance, hence 'more sad'...
I'll give you this: in a major chord, there is a minor third. It's what you get in the overtone series, the third and fifth harmonics. It's really quite consonant.
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Aroused by JarJar Aroused by JarJar https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=191505
- KVRian
- 1048 posts since 16 Oct, 2008
The major and minor thirds of 12-tone equal temperament are almost exactly equally out of tune with the nearest harmonic equivalents- the M3 is about 14 cents sharp and the m3 16 cents flat, but the m3 coincides almost exactly with the 19th harmonic partial, so... there is no "natural" explanation for one being "sadder" or "happier" than the other, as Jan points out. Critical band interactions make the m3 more dissonant simply because it is closer to the tonic, but this is clearly not an "emotional" issue, as the M2 isn't associated with happy/sad, nor is an octave (lowest critical band interaction) considered "the happiest".
Anyway with voicing, inversions etc. a "major chord" in terms of spectra/acoustics/psychoacoustics often consists of a minor sixth and a P5 stacked on that... so yeah, bullshit on any generalized absolute catagorization of "happy" and "sad" in terms of acoustics.
Even in Just Intonation (tuning based directly on the harmonic relations of audible spectra) it is not a black and white thing. The B+W nature of major/minor "duality" is purely cultural. As a side note, if you've read and understood 18th and 19th century theorizing of the time when this "duality" became fixed in the West (ie, when the modes mostly faded out of earshot), the culture reasons for the establishment of this duality would probably be shocking or offensive to most of us without shaved heads and jackboots. (Minor is feminine and weak don't you know, V-I was created by God, etc. You need to read German to get the real entertaining stuff ).
Anyway with voicing, inversions etc. a "major chord" in terms of spectra/acoustics/psychoacoustics often consists of a minor sixth and a P5 stacked on that... so yeah, bullshit on any generalized absolute catagorization of "happy" and "sad" in terms of acoustics.
Even in Just Intonation (tuning based directly on the harmonic relations of audible spectra) it is not a black and white thing. The B+W nature of major/minor "duality" is purely cultural. As a side note, if you've read and understood 18th and 19th century theorizing of the time when this "duality" became fixed in the West (ie, when the modes mostly faded out of earshot), the culture reasons for the establishment of this duality would probably be shocking or offensive to most of us without shaved heads and jackboots. (Minor is feminine and weak don't you know, V-I was created by God, etc. You need to read German to get the real entertaining stuff
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
it is purely cultural, and purely conditional.
For instance, there are ragas which a western ear might find (the intervals in combination to be) 'exotic and mysterious', or 'dark', or 'wild', but as it happens are early morning ragas connoting stillness and peace.
The first song I remember writing was in Nigel's sad D minor, and the intent was wintry and sad. To be sure, the little plucked arpeggios on the open position D minor with some of that E to give it that twinge of poignancy of the '9th', is typical for the effect intended. But that's so much more information than 'minor third'. Some of it is acoustically describable I guess.
Just by way of the side interest, in Indian music a pentatonic mode in a raga is considered masculine and decisive; you start getting more choices of notes and subtleties of inflection, that's feminine as it changes its mind often. Then you have Bhairavi, who manages to change sex with the 'soft' b7 instead of the aggressive (and a comma and a diesis more sharp than regular, 243:128 say) +7.
For instance, there are ragas which a western ear might find (the intervals in combination to be) 'exotic and mysterious', or 'dark', or 'wild', but as it happens are early morning ragas connoting stillness and peace.
The first song I remember writing was in Nigel's sad D minor, and the intent was wintry and sad. To be sure, the little plucked arpeggios on the open position D minor with some of that E to give it that twinge of poignancy of the '9th', is typical for the effect intended. But that's so much more information than 'minor third'. Some of it is acoustically describable I guess.
Just by way of the side interest, in Indian music a pentatonic mode in a raga is considered masculine and decisive; you start getting more choices of notes and subtleties of inflection, that's feminine as it changes its mind often. Then you have Bhairavi, who manages to change sex with the 'soft' b7 instead of the aggressive (and a comma and a diesis more sharp than regular, 243:128 say) +7.