KVR Audio

contrary · Post by **contrary** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:22 pm

Tube saturator VS Tape saturator

Whats the difference ...

Tomato vs tomatoe??

Obviously the 3rd possibility , a tube equipped tape deck is up for discussion too !!!

Just curious since WA has put out there version of a photo-realistic tube in a GUI ... Which pluggs have a photo-realistic tape deck ??

Cheers

Krakatau · Post by **Krakatau** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:06 pm

tube saturator suppose to emulate tube amplifiers saturation

tape saturator suppose to emulate....huh...

...i don't really know, i'm afraid !

,,,but there should be a difference (...in both orthography at first

)

... Which pluggs have a photo-realistic tape deck ??

you gonna laugh...tube tape warmer ...from nomad !

shamann · Post by **shamann** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Certain media, like tape or tubes, hold signals in even if the signal exceeds the medium's capacity, rather than just chopping off the signal at capacity (which is what hard clipping does). That kind of distortion is called saturation, so the differences in tube versus tape saturation depend on how tubes and tape hold the signal in.

Photo-realistic tubes on a GUI just make everything sound better.

Krakatau · Post by **Krakatau** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:12 pm

shamann wrote:Certain media, like tape or tubes, hold signals in even if the signal exceeds the medium's capacity, rather than just chopping off the signal at capacity (which is what hard clipping does). That kind of distortion is called saturation, so the differences in tube versus tape saturation depend on how tubes and tape hold the signal in..

interesting detailed info.. !

thoshu · Post by **thoshu** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:19 pm

shamann wrote:
Photo-realistic tubes on a GUI just make everything sound better.

And a deeeeep insight! So true.

A.M. Gold · Post by **A.M. Gold** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:23 am

shamann wrote:
Photo-realistic tubes on a GUI just make everything sound better.

I agree, although there are some great sounding GUI's out there that don't have tubes.

brok landers · Post by **brok landers** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:28 am

shamann wrote:Certain media, like tape or tubes, hold signals in even if the signal exceeds the medium's capacity, rather than just chopping off the signal at capacity (which is what hard clipping does). That kind of distortion is called saturation, so the differences in tube versus tape saturation depend on how tubes and tape hold the signal in.

>snip<

one should add that what makes it sound good is not only the fact that there's saturation, it highly depends on the nonlinear shape that the tube/tape saturates with and the phase relations it sets the driven signal to, aswell as _which_ harmonics are actually created. that's when the magic comes up. and that's what's so hard to achieve, be it analog or digital.

pikadilly · Post by **pikadilly** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:58 am

My 2-cent experience with nebula is that tape saturation makes sounds sound smoother and warmer. Wave Art's SA and the tube harmonic effect of Ozone4 can achieve pleasant enhancement of certain details with builtin eq.

shogger · Post by **shogger** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:04 am

thoshu wrote:
shamann wrote:
Photo-realistic tubes on a GUI just make everything sound better.
And a deeeeep insight! So true.

Yeah at least 20 - 40% better. But only if it's programmed in 65bit free floating programmming style. Add a few fixed points on the tube and tape of the GUI and the recording is set to become a #1 hit. Simply the bestest. Don't forget the high price tag to make it work. You know, good == expensive. Always.

Shogger

Zaphod (giancarlo) · Post by **Zaphod (giancarlo)** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:07 am

pikadilly wrote:My 2-cent experience with nebula is that tape saturation makes sounds sound smoother and warmer. Wave Art's SA and the tube harmonic effect of Ozone4 can achieve pleasant enhancement of certain details with builtin eq.

take a tube library (cdsoundmaster) and a tape library (cdsoundmaster), and vstanalyzer (or the analyzer shipped with nat3). Harmonic distortion and dynamic behaviour (different frequency and harmonic response at different input levels) are different

Igro · Post by **Igro** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:59 pm

shamann wrote:
Photo-realistic tubes on a GUI just make everything sound better.

Thanks for this advise, now i know!

Krakatau · Post by **Krakatau** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:05 pm

Igro wrote:
shamann wrote:
Photo-realistic tubes on a GUI just make everything sound better.
Thanks for this advise, now i know!

mabe this need to be confirmed, any blind test somewhere ?

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:32 pm

a tube saturation is much faster, more like a waveshaper. a tape saturation is slow, like a compressor with it's attack and release set to ms times.

the signal is compressed by an extremely simple compressor before being recorded on tape. tape has a very high noise floor. after the signal is taken off the tape again it is expanded by a perfect mirror expander which transforms the signal such that the noise floor is brought down.

in a tube amplifier, whichever type, wave-shaping takes place due to the non-linear behavior of a tube, similar to any other amplifier whether transistor or tube. it's rarely slowed at all, generally there may be some filters before and after the shaping, but the shaping itself is nearly immediate. the times are measured in units of 100s of uS, unlike the tape compression which is measured in 10s of mS.

some tape recorders never implemented a compressor/expander to reduce noise levels. tape also has a natural non-linear behavior above certain levels. in these cases tape can act just like a wave-shaper which immediately responds. the only difference is in the function applied and the pre/post filters. if the plugins in question implement _this_ behavior then they are no different than "tube" saturators, they're just another form of the same thing. two "tube" plugins might sound equally as different as two "tape" plugins as one "tube" and one "tape".

johnrrrrrr · Post by **johnrrrrrr** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:49 pm

A simple way to look at it is Tube is an in front of the signal thing and tape is on the back end.

Another simple way to look at it is think of a guitar amplifier. Think about what even a clean amp will do to guitar strings. Do some sound comparisons of a dry guitar vs through the clean channel and you hear exactly what tubes do.

Tape is a completely different process. Its so far from tubes it shouldnt even be in the same sentence. Noobs lob them together. If you want to understand tape sound without having the gear a simple way is to listen to cassette album and then a CD. Its so freakin obvious you'll never forget it.

Please dont anyone reply its more complicated than this because an infant knows that but this is a good place to start.

sophtrazor · Post by **sophtrazor** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:54 pm

mmmmm interesting