How does REAPER do it?

[ratatosk]

DAWs are wonderful, but without collaboration I doubt the results we hope for are realized. Which is why songwriters, musicians, engineers and producers are not one person in the music business.

There's another wrinkle to this: we've come into valuing music for its source, the artist, and its sincerity / meaning, rather than its aesthetic value. Forty years ago, you may not have been the composer of a song, or even involved in its conception; that simply didn't matter much. The question was: how well do you play it? How good can you sing it? How many butts can you get out of their seats?

Much of the time these were songs that at any point three other artists might have recorded, and dozens other had performed. Those who had an "exclusive" contract to a song couldn't expect to hold it indefinitely.. the performance was the value, not the composition.

Think for a moment of all the musicians before 1960 who wrote their own songs, and whose works were intended as a meaningful expression -- not just as entertainment. The list is rather short. Even jazz "greats" were performing permutations of previous standards.

Now we're all so very *earnest* about our music and it's not the performance that matters, it's the emotion and the story. This is not really a bad thing but it's important to understand. So the solo home producer playing every track, obsessing over the details and thinking just how great he or she is, is another entry in a line that began when we stopped being performers and started considering ourselves artists: just as the emo, indie, punk, blackmetal tortured stereotypes are simply more entries in a long tradition that go back to the first people who sacrificed pleasantries for honesty -- or, rather, entertainment for introspection, which can be... rather boring if not done right. And you're correct -- we have little perspective, and every person thinks they're the exception.

Of course, not me. I'm *really* artistic.

[sinzero]

...he or she is, is another entry in a line that began when we stopped being performers and started considering ourselves artists

yikes! performers aren't artists. Poor saps

[eduardo_b]

...he or she is, is another entry in a line that began when we stopped being performers and started considering ourselves artists

yikes! performers aren't artists. Poor saps

I think he means artists in the sense of creating new songs from scratch. Vocalists singing songs written by others are vocal artists, of course.

[dgkenney]

Just my personal opinion (but I am sure someone will have a bone to pick with these comments) this is also the reason that the quality of songs have really gone down hill. Almost all recorded songs in the rock genre and most in the pop category are written by the "artist." Unfortunately, most are not of the Lennon-McCartney-Harrison caliber. Once people figured out that the money was in the song writing it became almost imposssible to get songs placed in these categories. C&W seems to be the exception to the rule - and although not my favorite music - seems to have a higher degree of craftmanship in the lyrics and melody of the song. The "art" of melody is almost non existant in modern pop - most are merely rhythmic beats with some inane words repeated ad infinitum.

That's my view and I'm sticking to it.

Dan

[Bonteburg]

C&W seems to be the exception to the rule - and although not my favorite music - seems to have a higher degree of craftmanship in the lyrics and melody of the song.

I think Motown worked like that in the 60s - a team of highly talented songwriters churning out tunes in a 9 -5 style and the latest manufactured band to deliver them.

As for ubiquitous audio technology decreasing 'quality' I don't mind that so much. If most music is made by amateurs for amateurs it's fine by me.

[dgkenney]

I think Motown worked like that in the 60s - a team of highly talented songwriters churning out tunes in a 9 -5 style and the latest manufactured band to deliver them. And what great tunes they were too!

Exactly! Holland-Dozier-Holland are perfect examples. Although a distinct genre, the craftmanship of the writing was superb. Today we seem to be in love with one-person-doing-it-all. Perhaps an artifact of the democratization of music by DAWs. In most case, however, I believe a better product comes out of collaboration, where each part (e.g. engineering, writing, performing, etc.) is done by people who are skilled in that area. Can it be one person? Sure, but it is probably a lot more rare than we wouild like to admit - especially if we own a DAW.

[eduardo_b]

Just my personal opinion (but I am sure someone will have a bone to pick with these comments) this is also the reason that the quality of songs have really gone down hill. Almost all recorded songs in the rock genre and most in the pop category are written by the "artist." Unfortunately, most are not of the Lennon-McCartney-Harrison caliber. Once people figured out that the money was in the song writing it became almost imposssible to get songs placed in these categories.

I'd have to agree that the best songwriters are rarely the talent (musicians, vocalists). There are obviously exceptions, but the last 10 to 20 years (or more) have been a consistent example of your point. And often it's a team effort to craft the best work. Maybe the need to write their own material is a personal statement about being in creative control -- often a misguided effort.

[EvilDragon]

Today we seem to be in love with one-person-doing-it-all.

Sometimes with reason. Check out Pain Of Salvation.


Daniel Gildenlöw is pretty much godlike there. Does pretty much all the songwriting, all the vocals, plays guitar, writes all lyrics, even produces the later albums. All with sanity and control, and with feel instead of greed. Amazing band.

[LawrenceF]

Today we seem to be in love with one-person-doing-it-all. ...

Musicians, producers, arrangers and engineers cost money so some people convince themselves they don't really need them. And some people really don't, especially great bands who can work out some of those things in band collaboration.

There's exceptions of course but most good "one man band" performers/singers/writers music could probably benefit from collaboration with and/or the hiring of talented professionals to help develop their songs fully.

It does often cost money though.

Diane Warren is one of the most successful songwriters in recent history but she doesn't score all of the elaborate orchestration on her hits like "Titanic". She writes songs and lyrics on piano mostly.

Other people do that other stuff.

[eduardo_b]

Today we seem to be in love with one-person-doing-it-all. ...

Musicians, producers, arrangers and engineers cost money so some people convince themselves they don't really need them. And some people really don't, especially great bands who can work out some of those things out in band collaboration.

Certainly the cost of collaboration with professionals might be prohibitive, but for hobbyists this isn't really an issue. And there's nothing wrong with trying one's hand at all of the tasks involved. But, realistically, there are two problems. First, one has to have some innate talent in each area and then develop the skill sets needed. Second, it takes deeper talent/creativity to come up with many good songs or instrumental pieces on one's own. Now that is rare.

[LawrenceF]

Certainly the cost of collaboration with professionals might be prohibitive, but for hobbyists this isn't really an issue. And there's nothing wrong with trying one's hand at all of the tasks involved. But, realistically, there are two problems. First, one has to have some innate talent in each area and then develop the skill sets needed. Second, it takes deeper talent/creativity to come up with many good songs or instrumental pieces on one's own. Now that is rare.

Excellent observation.

More along the lines of the somewhat more serious hobbyist who has some decent demo songs he's done alone with VSTI's or whatever... it might cost him or her $4-500 to hire a small local cover band to come in for a few hours, learn a song and play the song for real.

The differences between those two things will often not be small.

You might also be able to barter if you're a decent engineer and get that done for free. For every song of yours they learn and play you record and mix two of theirs? Or give them X hours to do whatever they want?

Moving from midi sequences to real instruments and players makes a major difference in most cases, in certain genres.

[sinzero]

writing lyrics is one skill
writing a song is another skill
arranging the song is another
playing the song well is yet another
hell, so is performing live

and what about recording and mixing

even leonard bernstein didn't have all those skills, but that shouldn't stop you from trying to do as much as you can.

...until someone gives you a contract

[sinzero]

what was this thread about?

[Bonteburg]

To be honest the whole category of quality strikes me as highly subjective. (I know it's a terrible cliché but that doesn't mean it's not true).

Not only is there 'nothing wrong' with an army of amateurs doing all by and for themselves, but it's much more exciting and enjoyable than a pro-driven system. Hooray for the 21st Century!

Collaborations can't hurt. No use stewing in your own juice all the time. (Like I don't...!)


and yeah, how DOES Reaper do it.... amazing!!

[dgkenney]

Not only is there 'nothing wrong' with an army of amateurs doing all by and for themselves, but it's much more exciting and enjoyable than a pro-driven system. Hooray for the 21st Century!

While I agree that there's nothing wrong with amateurs doing all by and for themselves, we are going to have to agree to disagree on point #2.

As for the 21st Century, the jury is still out on that.

Dan