techniques for distorted synths?

[miqt]

hey everyone...i've been REALLY diggin' distorted synths for quite some time now, but i have a couple questions i'd like to ask those who know more than i do so i don't have to figure it all out the hard way. Ok, i have a couple issues/questions when working with distorted synths..

1. should i use soft synths that include distortion, like kabnals or synth 1 (although i don't like synth 1's distorion)? or should i make a clean poly synth, and then add distortion with audio effects like "crunch" or w/e?

2. Since i use my distorted synths mainly as a rythmic poly type of thing (not like a piercing lead), what frequency range do you guys usually have it taking up, i usually seem to keep mostly the hi's and hi-mid's...but i've heard songs in where the distorted synth takes up a really wide frequency range...

3. oh, also, what are some vst distortion effects MADE for synths...'cause so far i've been using some distortions made for guitar use, and it does all kinds of inconsistant, crunchy, weird phasy, way to big type of stuff....or it'll just muffle the whole thing.

4. If you think i should make clean poly synths, then run it through distortion, what kind of waves do you guys find to be the best with distortion? obviously something based on sin won't sound quite how i like it (at least i don't think)...so ya, any interesting wave form combos that you've guys found?
5. what to do about compression on distorted symths...this is something that's actually been pretty tough for me to figure out, because i want an even volume on it and w/e, but usually i find that compression will either 1)muffle it,or 2)make it WAY to big

5. (sorry for so many questions) when using distorted synths AND distorted electric guitars...what do you guys do to make them not clash (this is kinda based on the 2nd question) what frequency range would you make each take up?....or is it just a bad idea to try to include 2 different distorted things in one mix? (also, any additional tips on using distorted synths?)

sorry for all the questions guys. I actually had a lot more, but found alot of the answers on kvr...so these were the questions i had left that i couldn't find thanks in advance

-miq

[PaulSC]

I don't have a lot of answers for you, but re: question 4,

A sine wave or relatively pure wave IS worth trying through various types of distortion. Often, the LEAST effective waveforms if you're going to apply waveshaping distortion are square and pulse waves. (But if you're running these waves through a filter onboard your synth, before they reach the distortion stage, then you can still get good results with these waves too.)

Also, remember (re: the first of your two question 5s) that some types of distortion basically act like compression -- with clipping rather than limiting. So you can probably go easy on compressing a heavily distorted track.

Finally, if you haven't already explored multiband compression, it will open up a lot of new possibilities.

[PaulSC]

Also, check out Cyanide

[miqt]

I don't have a lot of answers for you, but re: question 4,

A sine wave or relatively pure wave IS worth trying through various types of distortion. Often, the LEAST effective waveforms if you're going to apply waveshaping distortion are square and pulse waves. (But if you're running these waves through a filter onboard your synth, before they reach the distortion stage, then you can still get good results with these waves too.)

Also, remember (re: the first of your two question 5s) that some types of distortion basically act like compression -- with clipping rather than limiting. So you can probably go easy on compressing a heavily distorted track.

Finally, if you haven't already explored multiband compression, it will open up a lot of new possibilities.

wow..thanks, this was SUPER helpful. I never thought of distortion as that...kinda makes it pointless to put compression then. ha. Ya, i learned that square waves sound like shit hahaha, good to know that pulse waves do too (unless warped into another sound in the soft synth as you said). ok...i've heard alot of hype about the wonders of multi-band compressors, and i have a couple ones that i have used...but i guess i just don't understand the concept enough...like, what's the benefit of "smooshing" high frequencies (or mid/low)rather than turning them down with eq? ....i guess i just need to see more instances of where, when, and how it's used and how it benefits more than regular compression and eq...if you don't want to explain, i totally understand. haha

[Kim Lajoie]

Square waves are beautiful.

Magic happens when you have a distorted duophonic part in fourths and fifths. If you add major or minor third, add it an octave or two up.

-Kim.

[mcnoone]

I would suggest trying Zebra2.
It does great distortion, and feedback.
FM and Comb filters, with Shapers, and others can be combined to create amazing, controlled distortion, and feedback.
If you don't own it, check the demo out. Then download the presets below.
Look for the guitars folder, and you'll see what I mean.

Otherwise you can try the free Ohm Force-Frohmage.

[synthgeek]

A few thoughts:

1. should i use soft synths that include distortion, like kabnals or synth 1 (although i don't like synth 1's distorion)?

yes.

should i make a clean poly synth, and then add distortion with audio effects like "crunch" or w/e?

yes. Use whatever combination of the two gets the sound you're after.

2. Since i use my distorted synths mainly as a rythmic poly type of thing (not like a piercing lead), what frequency range do you guys usually have it taking up, i usually seem to keep mostly the hi's and hi-mid's...but i've heard songs in where the distorted synth takes up a really wide frequency range...

There is no magic formula here, it varies by the track & the other sounds in use. EQ is your friend. Try using an EQ before or after (or both) your distortion to shape the sound, carving out frequencies that overlap. Other filter fx also work well in this context. Experiment with putting things in different places in the chain, as it can make a big difference in the final sound.

3. oh, also, what are some vst distortion effects MADE for synths...'cause so far i've been using some distortions made for guitar use, and it does all kinds of inconsistant, crunchy, weird phasy, way to big type of stuff....or it'll just muffle the whole thing.

I wouldn't say there's any one specific distortion that works for synths. Guitar fx are certainly a good source, also the previously mentioned Cyanide 2. Bertill is another one I like.

5. what to do about compression on distorted symths...this is something that's actually been pretty tough for me to figure out, because i want an even volume on it and w/e, but usually i find that compression will either 1)muffle it,or 2)make it WAY to big

Compression & distortion are closely related. Many distortion devices are really little more than extreme examples of compression. In some cases, compression can be useful before a distortion effect to get a more even response.

5. (sorry for so many questions) when using distorted synths AND distorted electric guitars...what do you guys do to make them not clash (this is kinda based on the 2nd question) what frequency range would you make each take up?....or is it just a bad idea to try to include 2 different distorted things in one mix? (also, any additional tips on using distorted synths?)

Again, EQ is your friend. Distorted sounds by their very nature take up a lot of room frequency-wise. This is also another thing that will depend on the specific sounds in a given track. Some things to try:

panning
giving focus to one or the other in any given section
transposing one or the other up ot down an octave (sometimes helps)

[ariston]

I always program fairly "clean" sounds, because no synth that I know of can do the type of varied distortion of my favorite fx units:

Camelphat, Kombinat (Audio Damage), and Ohmicide (Ohmforce).

While the latter two are dedicated distortion fx, it is also sometimes good to experiment with other types. Like PaulSC said, multiband compression can get good results (Audio Damage's Rough Rider Pro comes to mind). Sample downgrading gives you that digital bite (Kombinat is great for this, but there are others). D16 has a very nice and affordable multiband distortion unit, the Devastator, and also Redoptor, used for "almost like the real thing" tube distortion.

A good combo that is great for sound mangling is the Oligarc, by Schwa (Stillwell Audio). It comprises a tube-y distortion unit, filters, phaser, chorus, compressor and limiter. Btw, the synth by the same guy, Olga, is the best softsynth I've heard so far in terms of distortion. An awesome beast with a great built-in limiter.

Getting a good distorted sound isn't that hard, but the mixing is, I agree. I tend to use only one heavily distorted sound at a time, because you'd have to EQ something to hell to get it to sound good in context. I've also found that it's best to avoid extreme distortion on single tracks: you don't need oodles of crunch and bite to get that down'n'dirty effect in the final mix.

Some of this comes down to taste, as always. I love it when songs head off into feedback wonderland, and there's just this pulsating sound cloud coming out of the speakers. Others hate it, and consider it bad mixing.

[D N A]

Actually I prefer external distortion plugins rather than inluded in softsynths. Also audio destruction plugins can be fun - for example free Morfiki Redupcer is very nice.

Also, when I try to use higly resonating, squelching , screaming + distorted sounds I put limiter because some filters can act pretty bad with reso tweaked almost to the max.

[glokraw]

Don't be shy about adding phaser and flanger before and or after some heavy distortions. During the extended release time, some great sounds emerge, the more velocity sensitive/aftertouch capable keyboards yield even more goodies

[xh3rv]

Good advice, I'd just add to think of the noise introduced by distortion as a signal like the original sound, and one that can get blown up out of proportion without carefully management. Each step in a signal chain can amplify noise.

[miqt]

wow, thanks everyone! i totally got pretty much all the answers i needed...i'll download and try all these plugins you guys are talking about so i can see which ones are my favorite thanks for all the replies!!! So many things you don't think about until more experienced people show you haha. thanks!!!

[miqt]

Square waves are beautiful.

Magic happens when you have a distorted duophonic part in fourths and fifths. If you add major or minor third, add it an octave or two up.

-Kim.

ha. i had to read this over a couple times while i was trying it, but i totally get what you mean now awesome!!!

[xybre]

I tend to distort everything I get a chance to. I use different types of distortion on each track usually, often using different FX plugins. The effects range from "warming" to "holy f**k noise".

I've actually kinda used distortion in the past instead of EQ and compression: by using different kinds and levels of distortion you can actually focus and remove frequencies. Ever since I started using Leftover Lasagna's Pushtec though, I've been using more EQ and combining more measured amounts of distortion where needed though.

If you drive certain bands harder than the rest then you can change the way distortion responds, and as mentioned compressing first and then distorting is a interesting technique too.

[MOK19]

Great thread.
Thanks for the Cyanide link, PaulSC.