The Internet: All the music in the world that nobody's buying…
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- KVRAF
- 16858 posts since 13 Oct, 2009
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
I'm all ears (no pun intended) if you can post links to these studies.
I don't agree with you that I have described "my intuition, not logic", I think I've described both in this case.
I don't agree with you that I have described "my intuition, not logic", I think I've described both in this case.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRAF
- 4056 posts since 8 Jan, 2005 from Hamilton, New Zealand
ghettosynth wrote:That's what is not necessarily supported. Every study that I've seen suggests otherwise. I'm not trying to defend piracy here. It's just not clear to me that piracy is the reason that music is "harder to sell."A.M. Gold wrote: I don't blame that entirely on illegal file sharing, but I'm convinced that file sharing is contributing to it significantly.
I think AM's right personally-
Piracy *is* the dominant reason.
If you don't believe that, you've spent too much time on torrentfreak's 'news' feed (or Andrew Dubber's).
Scarcity drives monetary valuation.
Piracy destroys scarcity.
Piracy destroys value.
People cease to value music due to the lack of scarcity - all genres, all types.
They appreciate it - they don't value it.
A few people buy more music as a result of exposure. A select few,
but CD and online sales show them as the minority.
Try and tell me musics somehow gotten worse in the past 10 years, including the stuff that was released in the 80's and 90's, which is also selling less. Go on. Just try.
Try and tell me the sheer diversity of styles and platforms available is to blame, when the same systems are in place that were in place in the 90's and 80's, and the new ones only add additional content to people who're less in touch with the old platforms.
Records were undubbable. Tapes took ages to dub and lost quality. CD's took at least 10 minutes to dub. MP3's take seconds to dub and lose no quality. What's to stop us?
m@
I make music: progressive-acoustic | electronica/game-soundtrack work | progressive alt-metal
Win 10/11 Simplifier | Also, Specialized C++ containers
Win 10/11 Simplifier | Also, Specialized C++ containers
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- KVRAF
- 16858 posts since 13 Oct, 2009
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
I'm working on it. I post on another forum where this has been discussed before. It's mostly populated by people that agree with my thinking, so I've asked them to help me post specific evidence to back it up. It's not purely intuition, it's partly based on things I've read, but I haven't saved a list of links to them.ghettosynth wrote:
I can, but, to support your position you need to do the same. Your intuition is not supported by the studies that I have seen. So if you know of studies that support your position, then by all means, post links.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
One thing I'll say right off the bat about your first study is that it's five and a half years old. Do you have anything closer to current?
Edit: actually, the data is at least seven years old.
Edit: actually, the data is at least seven years old.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRAF
- 16858 posts since 13 Oct, 2009
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- KVRAF
- 16858 posts since 13 Oct, 2009
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- KVRAF
- 11839 posts since 23 Nov, 2004 from west of east
Of course, the actual monetary value of music depends on the decade. The cost of vinyl albums in the 70s was $3.98, CDs in the 80s were $16.95 and downloaded albums are now $10. But most people spend a buck for a song at a time or download stuff that costs them nothing (the legality is a non-issue to many). So, what is the value of music today. Somewhere between a dollar and nothing.
The economics of music have changed but the costs of doing business in the record industry haven't gone down at all. Studios, engineers, producers, marketing and distribution (including digital) are expensive enough that the break-even point is likely higher than many albums will sell for in total, and many people balk at paying for any music that isn't by their most favored artists. Downloading of copyrighted music is a fact of life now for anyone thinking of earning a living in music. Making enough to live on will be a challenge, and becoming wealthy is going to be a lot harder.
The economics of music have changed but the costs of doing business in the record industry haven't gone down at all. Studios, engineers, producers, marketing and distribution (including digital) are expensive enough that the break-even point is likely higher than many albums will sell for in total, and many people balk at paying for any music that isn't by their most favored artists. Downloading of copyrighted music is a fact of life now for anyone thinking of earning a living in music. Making enough to live on will be a challenge, and becoming wealthy is going to be a lot harder.
We escape the trap of our own subjectivity by
perceiving neither black nor white but shades of grey
perceiving neither black nor white but shades of grey
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
As I said, I'm working on it, but it will probably take a day or two since this isn't something I've tried to argue before, just something I've generally become convinced of. I will state that so far I think we are even, though, because I think your first study is too old to be valid at this point. I would accept that it is suggestive of support for your side of the argument, but can't constitute any kind of proof with respect to the current situation. Mass PTP networks were relatively young in 2002, for one thing (Napster having started in 1999).ghettosynth wrote: So, despite the age of the study, do you have any studies that counter it? You could easily find such a study, if one existed, by seeking the studies that cite the Harvard/UNC study.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
One thing I'll say is that I'm not actually inherently biased to disbelieve this contention, that I've heard many times in the past, that file sharing hasn't hurt sales, I just think it's wrong.
I am interested in carrying out a reasonable debate on the issue. If I actually am incorrect, it only helps me, though, since I do plan to self-release and try to scratch out a meager existence selling original music online (I realize that opens a whole can of worms about publicity, promotion, etc., etc. but I'm not trying to get into those issues now).
I am interested in carrying out a reasonable debate on the issue. If I actually am incorrect, it only helps me, though, since I do plan to self-release and try to scratch out a meager existence selling original music online (I realize that opens a whole can of worms about publicity, promotion, etc., etc. but I'm not trying to get into those issues now).
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRAF
- 16858 posts since 13 Oct, 2009
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- KVRAF
- 11839 posts since 23 Nov, 2004 from west of east
It's certainly counter-intuitive to say that downloading hasn't negatively affected CD sales. The degree of this effect, however, is not likely the only reason for decreases in CD sales. One thing is the amount of effort needed to rip, compress and burn from CD to portable. Not much fun and likely to motivate greater interest in downloading, dragging and dropping onto portables.A.M. Gold wrote:One thing I'll say is that I'm not actually inherently biased to disbelieve this contention, that I've heard many times in the past, that file sharing hasn't hurt sales, I just think it's wrong.
We escape the trap of our own subjectivity by
perceiving neither black nor white but shades of grey
perceiving neither black nor white but shades of grey
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
Agreed, but DL sales numbers are still very small.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRAF
- 1783 posts since 11 Jun, 2005 from Phoenix, Arizona
I think this is a point that is often overlooked and understated. I haven't read the whole thread but I have (like many of you) been privy to many of these discussions.eduardo_b wrote:...and many people balk at paying for any music that isn't by their most favored artists.
I think a lot of the economic model that we know, as the music industry, had a lot in common with the movie industry in that it was built around consumer's love affair with the artists. It seems as though someone forgot what they were really selling. Looking back on a lot of what filled the charts years ago I see a lot of one hit wonders or artists that couldn't sustain that relationship with their fans. And for the most part that hasn't changed. Those that learned how to market themselves (and not so much the music) seemed to fair better than the rest. And not that there weren't many, many folk making great music. There were. But they existed in different tiers in the market. Until consumers see value in the artist(s) again I don't see how to restore value to the artist's work.
Remember, it's all about perception.