KVR Audio

mystran · Post by **mystran** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:22 pm

I don't play piano (not properly anyway) but I used to play violin and as a result have played a lot WITH piano, and honestly of the examples posted here (the files in the beginning of page 4), neither sounds truly like a piano (whether that's supposed to be an up-right or a grand, I can't even tell).

The resonances on both are totally weird, though on Pianoteq they at least sound sort of "natural" (in the sense that a mechanical system that produces such sound could theoretically exist). The TP example also has weird decays and notes don't sound like they where parts of a single instrument, and some real strangeness in the resonances. The high notes sound bad on both, though in totally different ways. In Pianoteq they sound like thick strings (instead of several thin ones you'd expect) and in TP they sound like hybrids of a piano string an a glockenspiel. Hammers TP sound sort of convincing, on Pianoteq they a bit like hard rubber or something. Neither sounds realistic when a previously undamped string is hit again. Neither produces the nice sound that a real-piano makes when you release pedal with a lot of string vibrating, and they get damped somewhat uniformly (and probably time-varying when the string vibrations move the string stronger and looser against the damper).

Now if this sounds like I think they sound bad.. not really. I'm just trying to point out every miniscule detail that I can pick out that bothers. In the mean time, I'm either going to play the piano in this cheap Roland synth I got (which I'm not going to claim sounds any good), or go annoy my mom by banging her upright when I get annoyed by the dynamic keyboard.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:38 pm

mystran wrote:Neither produces the nice sound that a real-piano makes when you release pedal with a lot of string vibrating, and they get damped somewhat uniformly (and probably time-varying when the string vibrations move the string stronger and looser against the damper).

You mean... this sound?

Pianoteq pedal noises

Of course they are there - you can even set their volume. Same goes for key off noises.

mystran · Post by **mystran** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:51 pm

DragonSagoth wrote:
mystran wrote:Neither produces the nice sound that a real-piano makes when you release pedal with a lot of string vibrating, and they get damped somewhat uniformly (and probably time-varying when the string vibrations move the string stronger and looser against the damper).
You mean... this sound?

Pianoteq pedal noises

Of course they are there - you can even set their volume. Same goes for key off noises.

No. I don't mean that sound in the beginning. I mean the decaying tails of the notes themselves trying to fight for their life. It these samples it sounds like damping applied to a basic string model and also their decay (or release in the ADSR sense) seems very uniform.

edit: I just realized though, that since real damper cannot act like an electronic switch, there won't really be any way to simulate a real damper without using a continuous damper pedal, so some of what annoys me in that particular situation might be a model trying to fill in, if you're using an on/off type sustain pedal?

Arksun · Post by **Arksun** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:20 pm

Interesting thread and audio examples.

I couldn't pick, as everyone else has highlighted each has their own strengths and weaknesses. TP fairs better in the high notes and the overall shape of the individual sounds seems more 'together', PT sounds better in the way the notes combine and resonate off of each other and just general sense of a physical object, even if the synthesized elements that make up a note dont quite gel as well together at times.

Maybe they could learn from each other!, or a third party chimes in and creates their own modelled piano that takes the best bits from each one

Optomadic · Post by **Optomadic** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:29 pm

Finally got a chance to play both..

TruePianos then PianoTeq.

They both have very odd resonance indeed! TP seems more tolerable though

Got some other tests to do then finalize my findings..

Jake Jackson · Post by **Jake Jackson** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:24 pm

Well, these are very different presets. The PianoTeq has the mics set further away from the piano. Try moving the mics closer and bringing the lid down lower, if the darker sound and darker resonances are appealing.

opus_diaboli · Post by **opus_diaboli** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:55 am

PT sounds like what it actually is: a piano synthesizer. Rich, but a bit unnatural.

And by the way: I play piano since I'm a sperm.

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:11 am

I can make all sorts of erudite comments about both instruments... especially since I've been playing piano since my father was 5 years old. I'll leave that sort of commentary for others however and simply state that both are damned good compared to virtual pianos a few years ago but that neither can really match the real thing.

PAK · Post by **PAK** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:44 am

Jake Jackson wrote:Well, these are very different presets. The PianoTeq has the mics set further away from the piano. Try moving the mics closer and bringing the lid down lower, if the the darker sound and darker resonances that are appealing.

I was wondering when someone would pick up on that.. The mic settings on that Pianoteq example were set so wide it's almost hard to listen to it for any length of time on headphones. If you're even going to begin to compare something (not least something as subjective as Piano sound preferences) at least make sure the two examples are sitting in the same stereo space! As you suggest, making Pianoteq sound slightly darker would also probably help a bit for comparison purposes.

olepro · Post by **olepro** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:35 am

rasmusklump wrote:Sorry, DragonSagoth, I play the Piano since I was 7, was on a Waldorfschool and grew up there with music and Pianos and Pianoteq just doesn't sound right and real to me.
TP on the other hand does.
Case closed for me
Nevertheless I will try the next Pianoteq Demo.....

How old are you now ?... 10

By the way, i really like Pianoteq, but what i would like better still is the very first attack sound that i think still misses something... the sound of steel and wood resonance when striking each other.
Roland D50 showed how important the attack part is in relation to the sustain part in terms of how we recognice a sound.

rasmusklump · Post by **rasmusklump** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:07 pm

Optomadic · Post by **Optomadic** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:53 pm

Jake Jackson wrote:Well, these are very different presets.

I wasnt quite myself when putting these together. Will try closer presets next time..

Thanks for the observation..

johnrule · Post by **johnrule** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:11 pm

Pianoteq presets by default have a '3 feet away' sound to them, but they are certainly tweak-able with all of the mic modeling, EQ, reverb, key noise, damper noise, etc. I typically use my own "Kurzweil Piano" preset that has that in-your-face piano sound that I was used to with my Kurzweil.

I remember trying True Pianos before I bought Pianoteq, and I thought TP sounded very good. However, Pianoteq allowed more tweaking (I believe that is what pushed it over the top for me). Since then, PT has been upgraded with mic modeling, individual note adjustment, improved resonance, and a native Linux version.

Pianoteq is my only piano...no more samples.

JR

opus_diaboli · Post by **opus_diaboli** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:46 pm

Yes, PT is very tweak-able, but when I want to play piano I want to play piano. When I want to turn lots of knobs and sliders, I load Oatmeal.

electro · Post by **electro** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:30 pm

opus_diaboli wrote:Yes, PT is very tweak-able, but when I want to play piano I want to play piano. When I want to turn lots of knobs and sliders, I load Oatmeal.

ever heard of presets?

PianoTeq3.5.1 vs TruePianos 1.5.0. Latest versions showdown!