Question about synth edit sound...

[sweet_trip]

Hello,
I've been checking ou the SuperWave post in the 'Instruments' forum and it's made me come up with some questions regarding Synth Edit.
I'm sure that developing a huge synth like SuperWave justifies the asking price because of the time spent developing modules, wiring thing together and programing a smart GUI to go with it. This is definitely something I could never do on my own, and I really admire the time and effort involved.
But sound-wise, those it justify a price tag? It sounds amazing, do not get me wrong, but seems to me that a SynthEdit synth created by "person A" will sound just as good as "person B's" because they are using the same OSC modules and filters (?). I dont know much about what the new version of SynthEdit offers, but last time I checked, like Reaktor, it had a number of OSC modules and filters. Which means that every SynthEdit user would use the same oscillators anf filter for their synths, and the only thing that would really differentiate between synth is the way one wires their modules.
But I don't know nothing, I'm pretty much being ignorant, and writting this post pretty much as a long question, and not as SynthEdit bashing.
I guess my question really boils down to this: Is there a way within SynthEdit to design better sounding filters and oscillators, and to make really unique sounding synth? Kinda like how a simple bass synth patch would sound more punchy on V-Station than on Pro-53, or how filter sweeps in Oddity sound better than on PPG...

Just wondering, and sorry for my ignorance

[quincy]

Don't apologise! You're not ignorant!

The synthedit sound issue is a tricky one, some believe that many synthedit synths will sound similar because of using the same oscillators etc. This is really a matter of hearing each synth and judging for yourself.

As for making new oscillators/filters etc. You cannot do this actually within synthedit, but you can program modules using the C++ API provided by Jeff(creator of synthedit). You would need a C++ compiler, and some quite deep knowledge of C++ and DSP techniques.

Hope this helps in some way.

[xoxos]

then again.. if you use a pure math osc (ie. lala's sawtooth is just a -5+5 cycle) you can do many things to create a custom waveform w/o having to code anything..

is the price justified? if you 'take part' in synthedit, you might notice that development sort of goes around.. new ideas build upon existant ideas.. anything groundbreaking in that super synth? i suspect f**k all.

truth is, put a brushed aluminum plate on something, get the right people to say the right thing at the right time, and you'll sell a million.

learn how.

[quincy]

then again.. if you use a pure math osc (ie. lala's sawtooth is just a -5+5 cycle) you can do many things to create a custom waveform w/o having to code anything..

is the price justified? if you 'take part' in synthedit, you might notice that development sort of goes around.. new ideas build upon existant ideas.. anything groundbreaking in that super synth? i suspect f**k all.

truth is, put a brushed aluminum plate on something, get the right people to say the right thing at the right time, and you'll sell a million.

learn how.

Uh-oh, its the angry man

[shamann]

Uh-oh, its the angry man

Yeah, but he's right. The graphics on that thing probably took up 90% of the developer's efforts.

On the price, fair enough if folks are willing to pay out for it, but I gotta say it pains me when synthedit users start saying they deserve remuneration for all their efforts. Only a fool would expect a reward after the act has been completed without prior agreement.

Synthedit for fun or to learn, or even to make some money -- but synthedit because the world owes you something? f**k off and stop bothering us then.

I'm also saddened a bit when SE users charge more for a patch then what SE costs itself. I'd rather see the money go to Jeff, and perpetuate the development of the more useful tool.

To the sound question of SE, there are limits to the sound, especially to the native modules, but there is still plenty of leg room. It isn't the zenith of audio apps as some might have you believe, and it won't ever usurp lower level programming methods as others have stated. There is a fundamental difference between building from scratch and building from a kit. Both have advantages, but in terms of creative control, from scratch, if the developer is up to the task, will always win.

I advocate SE for its remarkable utility. Its real strength is that it allows you to create your own sonic tools according to your own needs (right down to interface) and conveniently use them in other applications as a vst plugin. Nothing else exists that does this as effectively.

Cheers,
Steve

[shamann]

...it pains me when synthedit users start saying they deserve remuneration for all their efforts. Only a fool would expect a reward after the act has been completed without prior agreement.

I should add that this is not directed at the Superwave folks, as I've never heard them around these parts moaning that they deserve anything. Others have said it around here, though, and the general sentiment hasn't set well with me for a while now.

Cheers,
Steve

[sweet_trip]

Yeah, that makes sense... I guess my point is that *for me* i wouldn't charge for a synthedit vsti because it has the synthedit signature written all over it. it's kinda like selling presets for synths, or reaktor ensembles...I mean sure there's a market for it and it's legit and all, but to me it just doesnt feel right to sell things like that. It kinda feels like charging somebody $10 if the service is $5 for every 15 minutes, but the person using the service used up 17 minutes...

i dont know, i'm just being naive, i'm sure

[hjack]

curiosity killed the cat

1st my vote goes to the Gui , you can have exactly the same source (.SE1) , if you have a better Gui than other , the best Gui version will , without doubts have for shure a much better sound qualitty ...



relation to the Oscilators or unique modules that give good or bad reputation to SE creations ... what is real , is that having all SE creators using the same modules , with all getting differents combinations , routing ways ... imagining the same things on different ways turn each synth special and unique ... there are infinite ways to create "things" , just need some time to dream and invent , will and some patience , heard here that create a sound machine can turn to be very frustating !
and give creators a piece of chance , after all if it is expensive , don´t buy , there´s so much in the market to choose

[BONES]

Yeah, that makes sense... I guess my point is that *for me* i wouldn't charge for a synthedit vsti because it has the synthedit signature written all over it. it's kinda like selling presets for synths, or reaktor ensembles...I mean sure there's a market for it and it's legit and all, but to me it just doesnt feel right to sell things like that. It kinda feels like charging somebody $10 if the service is $5 for every 15 minutes, but the person using the service used up 17 minutes...

I agree comlpletely. In these amoral times people seem to see no difference at all between what's legal and what's right. It's a very sad fact of modern society.

To address your original question, I believe that there is a great deal of scope for SE synths that share component modules to have a very broad spectrum of timbres, either to specialise in doing a couple of things really well [my approach] or even to provide a broad palette of unique[ish] sounds. As in the other thread, I would point you towards my FEARkILLER and GODkILLER synths which, whilst there is s fair amount of overlap, have very different characters despite sharing many components and a similar layout.

Seeing some of the more recent advances in SE I am tempted to get back into it for a while and see what I can come up with by combining some of the features of my existing synths into a sort of UberSynth [maybe I could call it UBERkILLER?] that I am sure would sound nothing like SuperWave.

[e-phonic]

cooool another thread about SuperWave

[ObsoleteAcc99]

Yeah, that makes sense... I guess my point is that *for me* i wouldn't charge for a synthedit vsti because it has the synthedit signature written all over it. it's kinda like selling presets for synths, or reaktor ensembles...I mean sure there's a market for it and it's legit and all, but to me it just doesnt feel right to sell things like that. It kinda feels like charging somebody $10 if the service is $5 for every 15 minutes, but the person using the service used up 17 minutes...

I agree comlpletely

and just to make my point. i TOTALLY disagree. no one is puting a gun to your head and telling you to buy it. remember the whole "free will" thing? If something sounds good to me and is fitting for my needs, i then make an assesment of whether it is worth it to me for the price it is selling for, and make a decision. i don't care if it was made in synthedit, c, delphi, or mama's kitchen. that is totally irrelevant. when are you people going to realise this?

[quincy]

Yeah, that makes sense... I guess my point is that *for me* i wouldn't charge for a synthedit vsti because it has the synthedit signature written all over it. it's kinda like selling presets for synths, or reaktor ensembles...I mean sure there's a market for it and it's legit and all, but to me it just doesnt feel right to sell things like that. It kinda feels like charging somebody $10 if the service is $5 for every 15 minutes, but the person using the service used up 17 minutes...

I agree comlpletely

and just to make my point. i TOTALLY disagree. no one is puting a gun to your head and telling you to buy it. remember the whole "free will" thing? If something sounds good to me and is fitting for my needs, i then make an assesment of whether it is worth it to me for the price it is selling for, and make a decision. i don't care if it was made in synthedit, c, delphi, or mama's kitchen. that is totally irrelevant. when are you people going to realise this?

I think you're missing the point here. Of course we all have free will to not buy something that we think is a rip-off. I totally agree with you there.

The point is that its still bad to try to sell something at at a rip-off price, whether anyone will buy it or not. I just think that the superwave folks should have excercised a little moderation in their pricing. I like the free superwave by the way, good for all sorts of things.

Oh, and for the last bloody time(hopefully ) for everyone out there - You cannot compare the efforts of someone hand-coding a complex piece of software, and someone stringing together building-blocks of sound. The results may be comparable, but the processs of writing complex code TAKES MORE TIME AND IS A DIFFICULT TASK. Sorry, but some of the non-coders out there don't seem to get this!

[e-phonic]

Sorry, but some of the non-coders out there don't seem to get this!

Well, I'm a coder... i don't get it as well

I seems that only programmers (SE and C++) have problems with this.

Strange... i see it this way:

Lets take Photoshop as example.
You've created the most wonderfull painting.
You've used Photoshop filters, brushes, and the pencil tool.
When you try to sell it, everybody starts yelling; "Ha ha ha ha! you're gonna sell that.. well good luck! You just used the Photoshop brush tool to draw that line!... how brutal! using other peoples code to sell your product!"

But in the end... the one that's gonna buy the painting DOESN'T CARE about how the painting was created, he just loves how it looks.

PJ

[vurt]

back on topic

check the mink in my sig,can you tell which tunes where made using synth edit synths?

[quincy]

Sorry guys, I just want to be clear i'm not having a go at synthedit designers or anything. I think you guys do brilliant stuff and i applaud you, i use synthedit synths myself.

I just sometimes think that the programmers don't get enough recognition. I don't see the photoshop metaphor as being accurate. I see it more as comparing someone who pastes together clipart to someone who paints from scratch using watercolours. Anyway, enough crap comparisons!

Ultimately you're right e-phonic, the resulting product and the sound quality is what matters. And if you're using a combo of synthedit as a framework(which its excellent at) and your own coding to give it some character, thats a great middle-ground. I plan to try some DSP coding myself, and i'd rather try to code a module and plug into synthedit than start from scratch with the VST SDK!