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neueliteratur · Post by **neueliteratur** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:13 pm

Hello folks,

I've been learning to recognize triads,

but I find it so hard to distinguish Aug chords from Dim chords.

Why is this?

Is there a scientific/theoretic basis behind this phenomenon?

Thanks,

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:28 pm

halfstep wrote:Hello folks,

I've been learning to recognize triads,

but I find it so hard to distinguish Aug chords from Dim chords.

Why is this?

Is there a scientific/theoretic basis behind this phenomenon?

Thanks,

Not sure why this is, but I think I understand what you're saying. Without any context it might be easy to realize that they are not simple maj or min triads and so confuse them.

The easiest way for me to distinguish them is to imagine how they would resolve. An aug 5th to me REALLY wants to resolve a half step up in the upper voice. A dim. triad wants to compress rather than expand when it resolves (although that's not always true depending on context).

A dim chord also has that "OMG" sound, like a chapel organ playing when Tiffany reveals that she's carrying Walter's baby.

neueliteratur · Post by **neueliteratur** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:40 pm

Hey, it's you again.

Thanks for your reply.

Ogg Vorbis wrote: A dim chord also has that "OMG" sound, like a chapel organ playing when Tiffany reveals that she's carrying Walter's baby.

(I'm sorry but that reference is completely obscure to me. lol)

soulata · Post by **soulata** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:46 pm

erm...I don't find them similar sounding at all but imagine diminished like an invitation to something (most likely minoe chord) and augmented as a soundtrack in a horror movie.

I kind of remember intervals and chords with song associations.

Augmented is (among other songs) an intro to Zappa's Muffin Man...

k

neueliteratur · Post by **neueliteratur** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:53 pm

soulata wrote:
I kind of remember intervals and chords with song associations.

Yeah, I guess that's what I should do.

Any songs with distinctively used dim/aug songs? (other than Muffin Man)

daz.diamond · Post by **daz.diamond** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:05 pm

just count the intervals ...
: diminished is stack of minor thirds (4 notes)
: augmented is stack of major thirds (3 notes)

neueliteratur · Post by **neueliteratur** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:12 pm

daz.diamond wrote:just count the intervals ...
: diminished is stack of minor thirds (4 notes)
: augmented is stack of major thirds (3 notes)

Yeah, that's what I'm doing for the moment.

But I wish I had a more direct way (more intuitive) than actually counting the interval with the head.

daz.diamond · Post by **daz.diamond** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:15 pm

that'll come if you "sing" it internally too. like muscle memory.

PaulSC · Post by **PaulSC** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:19 pm

halfstep wrote:Any songs with distinctively used dim/aug songs? (other than Muffin Man)

Propaganda's Duel uses I+ (augmented tonic triad) as a nice link between I and vi6 in each verse.

Re: distinguishing between aug and dim triads, it can help to associate the augmented triad with the whole tone scale (which can be thought of as two aug triads offset by a whole step). Or try singing 1-2-b3-2-1 (or 1-b2-b3-b2-1) against a diminished triad and 1-2-3-2-1 (with a major ^3) against an augmented triad:

hao nao · Post by **hao nao** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:27 pm

daz.diamond wrote:just count the intervals ...
: diminished is stack of minor thirds (4 notes)
: augmented is stack of major thirds (3 notes)

hey, thanks for pointing that out!

I'm a big fan of quartal chords meself, so maybe I can do something with this info

might as well add in a few stacked fifths while I'm at it

neueliteratur · Post by **neueliteratur** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:56 pm

I think I heard Eine Kleine Nachtmusik has augmented triads, but I have no idea where... Anybody know?

PaulSC · Post by **PaulSC** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:14 am

E.K.N. has no augmented triads.

wrench45us · Post by **wrench45us** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:09 pm

I have a lot harder time distinguishing certain 7th chords than I do dim and aug chords
augmented chords really really really want to resolve
that sharpened 5th is somewhat similar to a sharpened 9th with a dominaant 7th in putting an edge on the want for resolution

the dim chord as some of us have learned, thanks to a music educator in Montral, is the rotary switch of chords. It can set up a move in a lot of different directions.

part of the training of hearing where something is headed, rather than what it is

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:46 pm

wrench45us wrote: part of the training of hearing where something is headed, rather than what it is

Right on, Brah!!

Winstontaneous · Post by **Winstontaneous** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:57 pm

soulata wrote:I kind of remember intervals and chords with song associations.

The first chord to The Beatles "Oh! Darling" is the augmented V...that's what taught me the sound of the chord.

Beck references that chord/sound at the start of "O Maria" on his Mutations album.

Also, Wayne Shorter's classic jazz track "Juju" has augmented chords all over it. Shorter & co. used the whole tone scale quite a bit to improvise over the tune. Though both whole/half-tone diminished & whole tone scales are symmetrical they have fundamentally different flavors.

Why is it so hard to distinguish Aug from Dim?