I've written a piece of music that's in F, or Am.
Let me explain. The piece has a lot of B♭'s that could be accidentals or actually just the normal notes in F. When my piece begins it sure sounds to my ears that it's in the major key of F, but near the end I loose a few of the B♭ notes in an arpeggio and it sort of sounds like it changes key to Am (with a few accidentals ... the remaining B♭ notes).
It sounds kind of interesting, but I don't know if I'm "allowed" to move from F to Am without some sort of bridge thing.
I'm quite a beginner when it comes to music theory so I don't really know if what I'm asking makes any sense! So my question is, what is the theoretical explanation for what I have done?
Thanks for any help.
Accidentals and Scales
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- KVRist
- 268 posts since 26 Feb, 2009
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- KVRian
- 1000 posts since 25 Feb, 2008 from Sydney, Australia
When you play the B natural in the context you've described, you're in Am.
Once you drop the B for Bb, you have modulated to Dm (up a 4th/down a 5th).
You dont "need" a "bridge", but it sure does help smooth it out.
One way of "bridge-ing" from Am to Dm is to use an A7 just before the Dm chord or "section" ..... and to "bridge" back drom Dm to Am is to place an E7 just before the Am chord/section.
Hope that helps
Once you drop the B for Bb, you have modulated to Dm (up a 4th/down a 5th).
You dont "need" a "bridge", but it sure does help smooth it out.
One way of "bridge-ing" from Am to Dm is to use an A7 just before the Dm chord or "section" ..... and to "bridge" back drom Dm to Am is to place an E7 just before the Am chord/section.
Hope that helps
Prestissimo in Moto Perpetuo
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- KVRian
- 1084 posts since 12 Sep, 2008 from Your basement
In traditional tonal harmony, you might have a transitional harmony (like a "pivot chord") when modulating to A Minor as was referenced in the post above.
However, maybe you are not using traditional tonal harmony. In a lot of pop/dance styles the vocabulary is more of a "shifting modal" approach. In other words, you might use "cells" or phrase loops consisting of a bassline, chords, arpeggios, etc. that are in a particular mode such as D Dorian.
After 16 bars or something, you might shift to E Dorian. So your chords might be Dm9 and then after a while it's Em9. Before you had Bb's in there, but then when it shifts you will have B naturals and F#'s.
In that case you shouldn't analyze it in terms of traditional tonal theory because the harmonies simply don't function the way they do in traditional tonal theory. Instead they are like colors of paint on a palette. You switch from one to the other simply "when it's time to do so."
In "cool jazz" from Miles Davis, Gil Evans, Gerry Mulligan, etc. there was often this modal approach going on in the chord changes. In American minimalism of classical music (Glass, Reich, Riley, et al) the triadic harmonies could also shift in this way.
Maybe these vocabularies have influenced pop music makers in the 60s and 70s which, in turn, brought us our lovely modern electronic dance music.
I am not saying that the poster above is wrong. Not at all! She or he may be right on the money. What I am saying is that in order to provide the right "answer" to your question, you have to look at the context of your musical vocabulary.
I think the analysis always has to be a "relevant answer to the relevant question." I could have a Dm harmony moving to Gm and someone could say, "well quite obviously my dear sir, you have a tonic moving to a subdominant area (hub-blubb-blubb-haromph..)."
But what if the rest of my phrase never even seems to establish D Minor at all? What if I never even bothered to return to a D minor area ever again in the whole work? Is the music wrong or is the analysis wrong?
I my view the analysis is invalid. It might get you an "A" in theory class but it's not a relevant answer to the relevant question. A screwdriver is not the right tool to use on a nut, even if you are the world's most clever screwdriverist.
This is the long way of saying that you have to "ask your music where it's going" and "what it's trying to do." If in your example, your ear tells you that it's very earnestly trying to establish F Major and then it takes a swift left turn down A Minor boulevard, that's one thing.
But what if your ear tells you that the music is only doing a color palette shift from an arpeggio built around F with Bb's in the melody and then it swings to A minor for a change in tonal color rather than a "modulation."
How much does your phrase establish A minor? How much does it establish F Major? Where would you bring your next phrase to "rest?" Does it even need to rest (cadence) at all? Cadence implies a tonal tension to resolve somewhere. Does your music even WANT to "resolve" anywhere, or is it just marinating in F for a while and then sautes in A minor to get that flavor in there?
If it truly is a modal approach, then you are probably using harmonies coloristically rather than functionally. One is not more correct than the other, they are simply two different approaches.
If your ear tells you that you are using chords coloristically, then you don't need to worry about transitional "pivot chords" or other traditional structures. You are just free to "go there" to the next color area. Sometimes you can paste the whole section and transpose it to a different interval and it will work.
Does any of this help you? I hope so. When I start drinking coffee I tend to go off the beam...
However, maybe you are not using traditional tonal harmony. In a lot of pop/dance styles the vocabulary is more of a "shifting modal" approach. In other words, you might use "cells" or phrase loops consisting of a bassline, chords, arpeggios, etc. that are in a particular mode such as D Dorian.
After 16 bars or something, you might shift to E Dorian. So your chords might be Dm9 and then after a while it's Em9. Before you had Bb's in there, but then when it shifts you will have B naturals and F#'s.
In that case you shouldn't analyze it in terms of traditional tonal theory because the harmonies simply don't function the way they do in traditional tonal theory. Instead they are like colors of paint on a palette. You switch from one to the other simply "when it's time to do so."
In "cool jazz" from Miles Davis, Gil Evans, Gerry Mulligan, etc. there was often this modal approach going on in the chord changes. In American minimalism of classical music (Glass, Reich, Riley, et al) the triadic harmonies could also shift in this way.
Maybe these vocabularies have influenced pop music makers in the 60s and 70s which, in turn, brought us our lovely modern electronic dance music.
I am not saying that the poster above is wrong. Not at all! She or he may be right on the money. What I am saying is that in order to provide the right "answer" to your question, you have to look at the context of your musical vocabulary.
I think the analysis always has to be a "relevant answer to the relevant question." I could have a Dm harmony moving to Gm and someone could say, "well quite obviously my dear sir, you have a tonic moving to a subdominant area (hub-blubb-blubb-haromph..)."
But what if the rest of my phrase never even seems to establish D Minor at all? What if I never even bothered to return to a D minor area ever again in the whole work? Is the music wrong or is the analysis wrong?
I my view the analysis is invalid. It might get you an "A" in theory class but it's not a relevant answer to the relevant question. A screwdriver is not the right tool to use on a nut, even if you are the world's most clever screwdriverist.
This is the long way of saying that you have to "ask your music where it's going" and "what it's trying to do." If in your example, your ear tells you that it's very earnestly trying to establish F Major and then it takes a swift left turn down A Minor boulevard, that's one thing.
But what if your ear tells you that the music is only doing a color palette shift from an arpeggio built around F with Bb's in the melody and then it swings to A minor for a change in tonal color rather than a "modulation."
How much does your phrase establish A minor? How much does it establish F Major? Where would you bring your next phrase to "rest?" Does it even need to rest (cadence) at all? Cadence implies a tonal tension to resolve somewhere. Does your music even WANT to "resolve" anywhere, or is it just marinating in F for a while and then sautes in A minor to get that flavor in there?
If it truly is a modal approach, then you are probably using harmonies coloristically rather than functionally. One is not more correct than the other, they are simply two different approaches.
If your ear tells you that you are using chords coloristically, then you don't need to worry about transitional "pivot chords" or other traditional structures. You are just free to "go there" to the next color area. Sometimes you can paste the whole section and transpose it to a different interval and it will work.
Does any of this help you? I hope so. When I start drinking coffee I tend to go off the beam...
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- KVRian
- 1084 posts since 12 Sep, 2008 from Your basement
Good, I'm glad it was okay for you. I hope I didn't flood our OP. Suddenly I feel very guilty.TankEyes wrote:Some great language there O.V, nice read
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- KVRist
- 211 posts since 28 Apr, 2009 from Ft. Lauderdale, FL
I would say you are playing in the key of C bebop dominant, an 8 note scale which contains all the notes from F major and A minor (same as C major).
Drugs and alcohol have never helped me creatively, but for others it seems to be an essential part of the process. 
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 268 posts since 26 Feb, 2009
There's so much useful and good information here. Thanks so much everyone for all your help. I really appreciate it 
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
You're 'allowed' anything you can make an argument for your own self which works for you, in the context of your own music. (OTOH, if it's supposed to cop a certain style and practice, there are structures which apply 'best' to that style or practice period, maybe. IE: There can be things 'disallowed' if you're doing 'Mozart style' or something.)Klipspringer wrote:I've written a piece of music that's in F, or Am.
Let me explain. The piece has a lot of B♭'s that could be accidentals or actually just the normal notes in F. When my piece begins it sure sounds to my ears that it's in the major key of F, but near the end I loose a few of the B♭ notes in an arpeggio and it sort of sounds like it changes key to Am (with a few accidentals ... the remaining B♭ notes).
It sounds kind of interesting, but I don't know if I'm "allowed" to move from F to Am without some sort of bridge thing.
I'm quite a beginner when it comes to music theory so I don't really know if what I'm asking makes any sense! So my question is, what is the theoretical explanation for what I have done?
Thanks for any help.
There are ways to describe eg., 'notes found in the key of F major' but deployed on a tonic center A. *Modes*; which is to say the same set of pitches, of F major re-ordered with 'A' as '1' (rather than '3'). This one is called "A Phrygian". If there is some material in your thing based on the pitch set of 'A minor' as well as the pitch set of 'F major', you've mixed modes. It's not new to have done this.
A really 'distant' change of key or mode, might be jarring, and you might find that smoothening by *preparing* with a device such as a pivot tone or chord is desirable... but F to A minor isn't so distant or surprising in your case I bet.
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
Well, how does it sound when you bring in the B natural? If it sounds fairly smooth, then that part of the transition is probably done well enough. How about resolving to A minor at the end of the piece? Does it sound like it fits?Klipspringer wrote:I've written a piece of music that's in F, or Am.
It sounds kind of interesting, but I don't know if I'm "allowed" to move from F to Am without some sort of bridge thing.
Your two keys are so closely related that going from one to the other isn't hard, but having a piece that starts in F and ends in A minor will still have to work in terms of overall melodic flow.
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---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 268 posts since 26 Feb, 2009
Yes it does resolve to A minor at the end of the piece (to my ears anyway!), and it seems like it fits. Bringing in a B natural during the transition seems to inject some tension that I'm not sure about. Interestingly, a B natural during the ending A minor part also creates some tension, though not as acute as in the beginning F major part.
I'll post the song a little later on the Music Cafe (I've already got a piece on there now and don't want to be a hog).
Again, thanks for everyone's help with this. It's really interesting and I'm learninga lot
I'll post the song a little later on the Music Cafe (I've already got a piece on there now and don't want to be a hog).
Again, thanks for everyone's help with this. It's really interesting and I'm learninga lot
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 268 posts since 26 Feb, 2009
psenior wrote:Maybe you could teach me how you made a "real" flat symbol appear in your original post?
Well that's about the only thing I think I could teach anyone on KVR!
I just copied a flat symbol from a Wikipedia entry on scales and pasted into the text I was editing
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- KVRist
- 211 posts since 28 Apr, 2009 from Ft. Lauderdale, FL
I would have sworn you were going to tell me to press the Alt key then some 3 digit number like I used to do back in the MS-DOS days.
Drugs and alcohol have never helped me creatively, but for others it seems to be an essential part of the process.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 268 posts since 26 Feb, 2009
I posted the song in question, Tabla Rasa, over at the Music Cafe.