KVR Audio

Musicologo · Post by **Musicologo** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:49 am

About the piece 4'33 by John Cage, and the fundaments that it simbolizes the silence and its impossibility due to surrounding sounds (or even bodily sounds), and that silence is only possible on earth at -273ºC.

I've read few things around there, but still lack articles or sources.
However I've learned that the duration of the piece evolved during Cage's maturation of the same. And what was initially an idea had become more and more sophisticated and carrying more and more symbolism or "coincidences".

The final duraction 4'33 = 273 sec was established. Why that number, after n tries? Cage replied in a evasive way that was coincidence. Do you really believe that?

I can't. I can't believe that after so much thought, so much study, even going to annecoic chambers, I can't believe this was not a deliberate pick.

And then, in his humble and joker way denying it.

Anyone has sources (others than wikipedia Please!, real sources), on the subject?
I can't believe it's a coincidence even if he denies it, however it's just my gut instinct telling me that was a deliberate pick.

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:52 am

He prob. would not have used metric system.

Plimse · Post by **Plimse** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:28 am

Ogg Vorbis wrote:He prob. would not have used metric system.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:32 am

does the fact that its actually in three parts affect that theory?

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:14 pm

Musicologo wrote:About the piece 4'33 by John Cage...

Actually, as far as I remember, the duration of the piece is irrelevant. The first performance just happened to be 4 minutes and 33 seconds, but this was probably random. Other performances have been different lengths.

The duration isn't important, what is important is all the sounds contained within any one performance.

(Similarly, instrumentation isn't important. The first performance was a pianist but later performances have been done by entire orchestras).

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:05 pm

JumpingJackFlash wrote:
(Similarly, instrumentation isn't important. The first performance was a pianist but later performances have been done by entire orchestras).

I seem to remember that there was a written out score, right? But the performer does not play but turns pages. Is this correct?

Jafo · Post by **Jafo** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:33 pm

Or just possibly, Cage meant for the pianist alone to be silent, so that people could enjoy the stochastic goodness of the entire concert hall. (Nod to JumpingJackFlash's post above.)

Nah, that's just crazy talk; it's not like Cage ever wanted people to listen with new ears and minds and embrace the possibilities inherent in apparent disorder.

Nystul · Post by **Nystul** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:35 pm

4'33 was actually going to be hip-hop single featuring T-Pain and Usher. But Cubase crashed just before they could render, and Mr. Cage lost everything. Submitting an empty project with some artsy BS to explain it was just damage control. Amazingly his pointy-haired boss bought it hook, line, and sinker. The moral of the story is to never back up your work.

jcrisman · Post by **jcrisman** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:22 pm

Nystul wrote:4'33 was actually going to be hip-hop single featuring T-Pain and Usher. But Cubase crashed just before they could render, and Mr. Cage lost everything. Submitting an empty project with some artsy BS to explain it was just damage control. Amazingly his pointy-haired boss bought it hook, line, and sinker. The moral of the story is to never back up your work.

ˆˆ I like this explanation the best.ˆˆ

When I used to work for a sheet music distributor, someone titled-entered this composition into the database incorrectly as...

Four Feet Thirty-three Inches

Amazingly, people frequently did order this sheet music (which I believe C.F. Peters still publishes).

PaulSC · Post by **PaulSC** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:28 pm

JumpingJackFlash wrote:
Musicologo wrote:About the piece 4'33 by John Cage...
Actually, as far as I remember, the duration of the piece is irrelevant. The first performance just happened to be 4 minutes and 33 seconds, but this was probably random. Other performances have been different lengths.

The duration isn't important, what is important is all the sounds contained within any one performance.

Not true

(Similarly, instrumentation isn't important. The first performance was a pianist but later performances have been done by entire orchestras).

True

For a well informed discussion of the piece, addressing both its construction and its underlying ideas, see James Pritchett, The Music of John Cage. The -273° issue is not addressed there, however, nor elsewhere in the scholarly literature afaik...

jcrisman · Post by **jcrisman** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:34 pm

I think I should form a tribute ensemble of "prepared saxophone" pieces dedicated to Charlie Parker and John Cage.

It shall be titled, "Bird Cage" and I shall tacitly play the saxophone throughout.

danbroad · Post by **danbroad** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:34 pm

If he truly was a scientist, he'd use zero degrees Kelvin. And there'd be some nerdy reference to the triple point of water. Or something.

Still, I like unexplained coincidence, and that's a good'un.

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:44 pm

danbroad wrote:If he truly was a scientist, he'd use zero degrees Kelvin. And there'd be some nerdy reference to the triple point of water. Or something.

Still, I like unexplained coincidence, and that's a good'un.

His follow up timed piece was 0'00" which could correspond to Zero Degrees Kelvin!

Okay, I am stretching it a bit. BTW, "Kelvin" sounds like a good name for a buck-toothed dog.

A.M. Gold · Post by **A.M. Gold** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:10 pm

Either way it was a landmark piece that changed music forever.

ghettosynth · Post by **ghettosynth** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:43 am

4'33 and -273ºC coincidence or not?