How Many Units Does A Hit Synth Sell?

[yellowfever]

So, lots of smalltalk and BS on here and some interesting input from respected devs, but, How Many Units Does A Hit Synth Sell?

Define a hit synth. Synths you THINK were hits probably are not. Just because everyone in the world is talking about something does not mean they have bought it.

Which synths do YOU think were hit synths?

Mike

A hit synth is one that sold by the bucketload, be it for $5 in a group buy holiday sale or one that sold thousands of copies @ $150 because it's awesome. Hey, all I did was copied and pasted the OP question, because after so many posts, the original question has not been answered imo.

[koalaboy]

So does that mean it's like a Hit Record ? Doesn't have to be any good - we're just after sales numbers ?

[glokraw]

sonkey sankey ...we're all bored stiff with your "I know best" thread hogs

lotuzia ... you're justifying software theft in KVR. Please don't.

Everybody else - great thread - one of the best this year

Well I reread my post and I dont think so. I you refer to the part when I say that I understand very poor people to steal, read it this way : If you have a family, need to feed your babies and have no other way to do it than stealing, I understand you will.Thats all. Maybe its more clear like this ?

Anyway I had the impression what I wrote was merely a charge against piracy, but sorry if I offended you. If some other people feel the same than you I'll just edit and remove my post

LtZ

Thievery is a condition of the heart, in the U.S. huge corporations routinely used pirated software suites and Operating systems, rather than buying site licenses. The poor
who steal, rather than humble themselves in a welfare line, church, or benevolent mission, will also steal in better situations. Witness the catastrophic welfare fraud in the California. Its freaking PARADISE, and its going bankrupt because thieves control
the low end, the government, the high end, and everything in between.

"Thievery is a condition of the heart?" Always? Never a condition of circumstance?


Or survival? I'm not talking pirating software here. With mention of a welfare line and mission I know you're not either.

Thievery is also a constant temptation, and like any enemy, vigilance and energy are required to maintain freedom from it. I have a relative, who began stealing at age 5,
never was poverty in the equasion, opportunities for betterment were abundant, and he never has stopped.

[yellowfever]

So does that mean it's like a Hit Record ? Doesn't have to be any good - we're just after sales numbers ?

I would say that was the OP's intention, yes. After all, define good - what you or I might call good, someone else may define as crap.

[glokraw]

So does that mean it's like a Hit Record ? Doesn't have to be any good - we're just after sales numbers ?

I consider synth1 a hit, Synth1 was easy to install, is easy to maintain, has great sounds, low on cpu, and is easy to use.

Any commercial product should aim for those traits.

I loaded up 5 wusikstations last night, and despite a huge size difference, wusik still
meets those traits well.

There are some big-selling boxed competitors that fall short on one or more of them.

You are right about the hit-record-machine streams of dull, repetitious clones

[eduardo_b]

I'd say the biggest surprise for those who are new to music software is how relatively few units are sold overall in any category over a period of years. And many of those are not in active use...gathering digital dust in folders around the globe.

[Kyran]

In case people didnt get any intention on Mr Madoff's case : Stealing is not always a matter of poor or rich. It would be too simple. More often, its a simple question of lifestyle. Imho I would also call this simple dignity or awareness.

Unfortunately this is very true. I know a lot of people who make money from music: they have released tunes, get to play lot's of gigs, etc. None of them actually buys their software. Sure they invest in their hobbies, but they'll only pay money for what they can't crack. A better laptop, different monitors, better headphones, new keyboard, umpteenth controller, ... all no problem. They'll buy it because they need it for their hobby, but they won't buy their software because they can get it for free.

These aren't the try before you buy crowd: they have long since settled on their tools. If tomorrow all their cracks stopped working, they'd all buy their software, but today they don't feel like they're doing anything wrong.

[Ben [Camel Audio]]

So, lots of smalltalk and BS on here and some interesting input from respected devs, but, How Many Units Does A Hit Synth Sell?

Angus has said that there were only 3 synths that sold more than 2000 units in the US market in the last year, and that he thinks there is around a 2.5 multiplier from US sales to the entire world (and this US/world multiplier fits with Camel figures). So only 3 soft synths sold more than 5000 units worldwide in the last year. Admittedly we don't know how many units these companies sold direct (ie. from their website - not through stores), but probably not enough to very significantly effect the result. Urs has said that he's sold around 3000 Zebras since he released it quite a few years ago.

I would say that these facts come as close as you are likely to get to answering the question. Certainly those figures are news to me! I would say the general mood of the thread is one of suprise that soft synths don't sell more units.

Ben

[Urs]

My point being, once the program has been written, it's been written.

That's true only for dead software. Developers with that attitude disappear from the market rather quickly, and they stop selling after a few months.

The only way to keep a software alive and selling is by adding features and extra value on an annual or faster pace.

[D N A]

Now, as for sales, what really makes things good is to really try to help users, not just earn money. Money is required, yes, as I need to pay my bills. But what I want to do, is really be there for people.

+1000

I remember, about 1,5 year ago I bought my first "powerful" DAW - Ableton Live Suite. It was used version bought here on kvr. That is actually my biggest software / hardware investment ever.

After successfully transferring the license, Ableton support mailed me and asked me about writing the things I like or dont like in Ableton etc.
Normally, I'm kind of user who doesnt bother support, but this time I had a little bit of time I wrote huge wall of text - mainly about my music fascination, about other DAWs I used etc. Somewhere deep inside the whole text I wrote just one small sentence describing one thing I dont like in Ableton (i had some problems with previewing midi - very loud volume). One day later they replied with a screenshot showing me how to change it. I wasnt expecting this Actually, I wasnt expecting that anyone would read the whole text In that moment my "loyalty" jumped from 0 to like 100 hehe.

Why Ableton ? Using different DAW I felt Like I need something different ... and Ableton (lite) was bundled with my EMU X-Board keyboard. Yea, big companies have more options which translates into better marketing Actually, same applies to NI Traktor ("lite") - bundled with Numark Total Control controller. Upgraded to full version, for a discounted price (50 %), about 3 days later after buying controller.

Obviously downloads of warez copies are not the same as lost sales, but there is a significant minority of crack users who will buy if there is no crack version available. I would guess that if a product isn't cracked you probably get somewhere in the region of 25% extra sales, depending on the products, its competition etc. There is also a (pretty small) proportion of users who use cracks and then subsequently buy the full version - I think this can perhaps be expanded by creating additional benefits to being a registered user - things like having updates with new features, fixes and extra content which haven't been cracked, user libraries, excellent customer support, tutorial videos...

I guess the model is much more complicated. I come from the country where 15-20 years ago was no law protecting against the piracy. For such countries, it takes time to convince people that piracy is bad. Myself I used warezed software too. I remember, for few years I used pretty old version of some firewall. I liked it, I got used to it. One day I told myself: screw this and bought the legal version with lifetime license. My point is: you never know how many "pirates" can be turned into the bright side of the moon

Lot of people use warezed products as "Demo versions" - they may buy your product (or not) 1,2 years later - no statistics will display this.

Also I think that for relatively unknown products it's not always the worst thing being published on warez sites. I may be totally wrong but from marketing perspective - it's better to have recognized product than relatively unknown one... Not everyone can get a review at Future Music etc. I feel sorry for small developers and their products being cracked the day after release but it's really tough to measure (positive / negative) influence of warez.

------------------------------

About the prices - generally I think that VST plugins are quite cheap. Sure there are still products too expensive (like 120 - 150 EUR) for me (ie. Camel Audio Alchemy ), but there are so many promotions, group-buy that if you really, really want to, you can get nice piece of software. That's how I got Alchemy For the last 1,5 year (i wanted to create small, very small , home studio) I bought:
- Ableton Suite 7 (used)
- Wusikstation (group-buys: 2009, 2010)
- Prizm (Huge promotion)
- Camel Audio Alchemy (group-buy)
- Kirk Hunter Studios Emerald (50 % off promotion)
- Nucleus Viral Outbreak (50 % off promotion)
- AAS VA-1 (No-brainer audiomidi deal)
- Terratec Komplexer (used)
- Audiodamage fluid (used)
- Synapse Audio Toxi II 2.5 (no promotion, but it has great price compared to value)
- Nomad Factory Trackbox (no-brainer audiomidi deal)
- XILS3 (no-brainer audiomidi deal)
- IL Harmless (pay as much as you want deal)
- Fabfilter One (5 E deal)

All of this (+ some few small sample libraries, 3rd party soundbanks), I bought during some crazy sales, promotions etc. Now, when I look at this, I see that I spent waaay too much


ps. such low sales are surprise to me Actually I thought that Urs has a Porsche

[sonkeysankey]

That's very interesting, Ryan, I didn't think there would be anybody who actually made money from their music, who would still use warez.

I also think this problem is exacerbated by the computer music media's seeming insistence that 'good' software means 'expensive' software. Newcomers to computer music are going to read magazines and, seeing mainly (or only!) what I would consider 'expensive' (to me) software, they may decide that the cheaper, or free, software, can't possibly be as good as the 'expensive' software, because the magazines never review it, and never talk about it.

Somebody mentioned this either earlier in this thread, or in another thread today.

After all, if you can't write a hit tune with Synth1, it won't matter what you buy, you are not going to improve your song writing skills with more expensive software.

[sonkeysankey]

My point being, once the program has been written, it's been written.

That's true only for dead software. Developers with that attitude disappear from the market rather quickly, and they stop selling after a few months.

The only way to keep a software alive and selling is by adding features and extra value on an annual or faster pace.

Compared to writing the entire original program, I presume that adding features requires much less time.

[Urs]

and the rest is taxed 40%

if it's taxed at 40 % in D you are doing ok. fortunately !! still, we do reach that bracket too early in this beautiful country.

Yes and no.

I'm doing absolutely okay, no problem. However, the magnificent hurdle IMHO in the tax system are side effects of company growth. My growth in revenues has been steady about 10%-20% each year. The problem is that investments don't count immediately, they are written off over the course of 5 years (computers, software) to 10 years (instruments, synthesizers). So, in some years I couldn't even invest as much as I wanted to because it wouldn't bring the taxes down enough to be still affordable. It's a complicated matter, but you catch the drift.

Furtherly, the tax system becomes progressively more throwing with higher revenues. So while the first years (2002-2006) were comfortable to start with, e.g. taxes were paid for a single year at the end of the following year, I lived through two steps where things were suddenly due for payment earlier. At first, the VAT mode was switched so in 2007 I had to pay "all of 2006 and all of 2007 immediately". Then, in 2009 I was hit with income tax for 2007 plus an estimated advance for 2008 plus the quarterly estimate for 2009. In 2009 I paid taxes for 3 years, which was more than I had left from revenues after expenses. On a positive side, from 2010 on I'm always clear with taxes on a quarterly basis, it can't get worse anymore

So yes, technically it's a good sign to pay 40% (or whatever 30+ % it is since being married), but in reality the percentage is taken from a greater margin than the revenues after investment.

Still not too shabby though. We can afford organic food and an occasional seafood platter.

Urs

[strav101]

I buy all my shit... I have far too much stuff...I've got most of my VSTs 2nd hand, in group buys and promos. I have bought some stuff new and have paid upgrade fees.

I must have spent in the last 7 years around £8000 on plug-ins, software, my Creamware Scope board with some plug-ins etc
Also I have Sibelius, Live, Sonar - NO WAREZ

I have an incredible amount of power in my hands and it now covers the lot - and actually I don't make much music - I tinker and muck about, making presets, learning the technology - heck, people pay money on golf shit like clubs, membership fees - that's so boring!

A mate of mine got piles of vintage shit, loads of Scope stuff and he tinkers around with it, unfinished songs etc.

It's my hobby - I have a well paid job - we have got to buy the stuff to keep the devs happy - unfortunately, often well paid people are less likely to buy software......

[Urs]

O.K., So it's $375,000.00 after expenses and taxes, over a period of
6 years. that's $62,000.00 year.

im not sure how you get there. 3000 copies at an average sale price of $120 works out at $360,000. And that's $360,000 before expenses (which Urs estimated at 50%) and taxes (estimated at 32%).

In other words, roughly two third of half of your $62K per year figure.

my bad, I did $125.00, not $120.00. Maybe I misunderstood what he was
saying, I thought he was implying that after taxes, expenses, etc,
it worked out to around $120.00 per sale. If that's not what he was saying, than I apologize.

It's about 120$ *before* expenses and taxes. That's roughly what's left over before it appears on my bank account after ShareIt took fees and people used coupon codes. Nowadays it's merely 160$, but in 2005 or so it was rather 90$ (Group Buy, intro discounts etc.).

Apology accepted though, I guess hadn't been clear about the relation between my two posts.

Cheers,

Urs