Have I got this correct

[breakmixer]

I've started reading 'Music Theory for Computer Musicians'

Now today I had a play with Chords and noticed this

Any chord using only white keys sounded right unless two white notes where next to each other on the keyboard, sometimes sounded not too nice

Any black keys only played together as a chord sounded fine, even two next to each other unless I played too many next to each other

Next I randomly chose black and white keys, some sounded nice, some where out of tune,

So I set about choosing(for example) C# and then playing C,D,E,F,G,A and B, some notes sounded harmonious, others out of tune,

I did this for all the black keys with similar results, some in tune, others out.

So doing this narrows down available options when playing a chord progression, I.e. if a Bassline is playing that uses Black & White keys, whilst for example note C is playing I can play any chord using white keys or a chord that is played on black keys which is only using the keys I have found that are harmonious with it and the other option is any white keys with certain black notes that may be harmonious with C only, then within a bassline that is falling on C#, whilst C# is playing I can only play any Black Chords or White Keys that are harmonious with C#, but any chord which features notes that are harmonious with C#...

What have I learnt or have I got it wrong thinking like this...

It means surely a chart exists that show available options for all the individual black keys and what white keys each are harmonious with,

Am I jumping the gun with this thinking and am I wrong or right?

Cheers...

[yellowfever]

This topic was covered in great detail only last week. I can't find the link right now....

[thecontrolcentre]

You need to stop thinking about black keys and white keys, and just learn some scales and chord progressions. Have a look here for some printable chord and scale diagrams.

[Gamma-UT]

It means surely a chart exists that show available options for all the individual black keys and what white keys each are harmonious with,

I think some books do have charts like that. But the chart would be enormous and much harder to learn than the methods used to teach music theory.

The piano keyboard is a bit deceptive - it looks that way mainly because of the way musical instruments developed over the past 500 years. It's not so much about whether keys are black and white but the spaces or intervals between the keys. Any two keys together - E & F, F and F# or whatever will sound 'wrong'. However, there are plenty of melodies and basslines that play one after the other - the ear doesn't mind that so much. The thing about the black keys is that none of them are adjacent - they are always separated by at least one other note which just happens to be white on a piano keyboard. The guitar, for example, makes no such distinction.

In the early stages, you are going to be dealing almost exclusively with the white keys because they are the only ones that fit the key of C Major (it's a different story for C Minor). But keep experimenting, you are going to learn a lot about the relationship between notes simply by playing keys together. And you will find that, while the book talks about staying on a scale, you can often go outside that scale to good effect.

But if you want to know which notes fit a scale, count the spaces between the white keys. Then move up one, so that you start on C# and play the same intervals in sequence. You should again hear a scale that sounds 'right'.

[wrench45us]

one can attempt by experimentation and observation to come up with one's own rules and it's not without merit,
but consider the amount of history that went into the keyboard layout and the theory
I mean when I consider how many areas I've tried to find shortcuts and the easy path or the path suited esp to me, I wasted a lot of time

scales / intervals really are the best way to make sense of it
(it might be a little different on a fretboard)

consider wanting to play all the black keys -- well that works as well, but you have to start on a paricular note and the usable white key changes

[psenior]

It means surely a chart exists that show available options for all the individual black keys and what white keys each are harmonious with,

Am I jumping the gun with this thinking and am I wrong or right?

Cheers...

You are somewhat correct. For playing melodies, Barry Harris has codified a logical system of rules that tells you what passing chromatic notes to play on various descending major, minor and dominant scales. The rules depend on what note of the scale you are starting on and what rhythmic figure you intend to play. This is the essence of bebop jazz soloing.

I don't think I've posted these rules here before. I'm sure I can dig up a summary of the most basic ones and post them here if you like. Let me know.

Some of these same scales can be used for playing chords. I guess you could randomly press down on several notes in the scale and it would still sound decent. This is subjective to your perception of consonance and dissonance.

I think for harmonies to sound good, it's important to understand principles of voice leading. Doing what you described in your original post is a valuable experiment, but definitely not good voice leading from a classical or jazz perspective. What you did probably bounced back and forth between semi-normal and avant garde depending on the notes. Again, this is purely subjective speculation on my part.

[MOK19]

I've read this book as well, completed it bout 2 or 3 months ago. Since then, I feel quite confident on these basics. Although, the book has some glitches in it.

My advice is to buckle down and read that book. If you are not absolutely clear and confident on what one chapter covered, re-read it. They're not long chapters. Take one chapter every other night, and you'll be done in about a month. And do the exercises! If you're gonna cop out on the exercises, at least read them. At LEAST read them. The exercises are a significant part of retaining all the info that gets thrown at you.

FYI, I ended up re-reading about half the chapters because I digested it over such a long period of time, with long breaks in between. I'd forget what was taught. You might be able to avoid this by doing it every day or two or three. But avoid taking like a week away from the book, or you'll end up re-reading most of it, as I did.

Even though you've got questions that are coming to mind now, if it wasn't covered in the chapters you've read already, then don't worry about it and press on. The chapters' topics are laid out in a very logical manner, so just trust the book. You'll save yourself much confusion and headache if you do.

...Except those times where the author phrases a sentence or paragraph badly. Those occasions suck. It happens a few times in that book.

[VicDiesel]

You need to stop thinking about black keys and white keys, and just learn some scales and chord progressions.

Ditto that.

Your observations about white and black keys can't be correct. You say that clusters of black keys sound good but clusters of white keys don't. Can't be. There is no difference between pressing C-D-E and F#-G#-A#.

Victor.

[MOK19]

^
Ditto x2

Instead of black and white keys, you'll start seeing it in terms of Intervals, and interval patterns. So read carefully when the book speaks of them. If it's already been mentioned, back up, and read that chapter again. This is the most important perspective to get early on.

And, btw, congrats on taking this step. Learning music theory from scratch, alone, is solid accomplishment.

[Gamma-UT]

You need to stop thinking about black keys and white keys, and just learn some scales and chord progressions.

Ditto that.

Your observations about white and black keys can't be correct. You say that clusters of black keys sound good but clusters of white keys don't. Can't be. There is no difference between pressing C-D-E and F#-G#-A#.

Victor.

I think the OP is assuming the intervals between adjacent black keys are the same as those between adjacent white keys, not realising that every black key has at least one white key between it and the next. At least that's how it read to me.

[breakmixer]

You need to stop thinking about black keys and white keys, and just learn some scales and chord progressions.

Ditto that.

Your observations about white and black keys can't be correct. You say that clusters of black keys sound good but clusters of white keys don't. Can't be. There is no difference between pressing C-D-E and F#-G#-A#.

Victor.

I only said that some white keys'clustered' don't, not all! It was an observation only, just they didn't sound too nice, I'm thinking it was A-B? I'm nowhere near my keyboard at the minute...

[Gamma-UT]

You need to stop thinking about black keys and white keys, and just learn some scales and chord progressions.

Ditto that.

Your observations about white and black keys can't be correct. You say that clusters of black keys sound good but clusters of white keys don't. Can't be. There is no difference between pressing C-D-E and F#-G#-A#.

Victor.

I only said that some white keys'clustered' don't, not all! It was an observation only, just they didn't sound too nice, I'm thinking it was A-B? I'm nowhere near my keyboard at the minute...

Probably B-C and E-F.

[breakmixer]

^
Ditto x2

Instead of black and white keys, you'll start seeing it in terms of Intervals, and interval patterns. So read carefully when the book speaks of them. If it's already been mentioned, back up, and read that chapter again. This is the most important perspective to get early on.

And, btw, congrats on taking this step. Learning music theory from scratch, alone, is solid accomplishment.

Cheers, problem is my reading is done in the lounge and no keyboard, otherwise I'd have to read it in the studio - and that feels odd, I'm also trying to find a tutor also for weekly lessons...

[VicDiesel]

I only said that some white keys'clustered' don't, not all! It was an observation only, just they didn't sound too nice, I'm thinking it was A-B? I'm nowhere near my keyboard at the minute...

Stop confusing yourself. Learn about scales and chords.

Victor.

[MOK19]

ahh, yeah, that does present a hinderance. I have my gear in my bedroom, so I could do it when I'm winding down to sleep.
If you can find a way to get a tiny keyboard in your bedroom, that may help.