When making a chord progression is it wrong too......

[rocknje]

Hello everyone,

I want to clarify something about chord progressions. In your DAW program, lets say you choose the octave range at C5, but you were to choose the E Major Scale and the notes are E, F#, G#, A, B, C# and D#.

When forming your chord progression is it wrong to add notes in your chord below E5? Like using note C#5. Or should you always form your chords above the key or note you have chosen and in my case is E major?

So, if your first chord is E Major, which is E G# B in the 5th octave, would it be wrong to have this as your next Chord A E C# at the 5th octave? Or should I be saying that as long as the noes stays within the E major scale then it is alright to use? So the note in question in this example would be C# in the 5th octave.

I hope I am making sense. Thank you for your help.

Jeff

[robogone]

You can use any chord you want. There's no 'right' or 'wrong' way of doing it.

[cosmicdawn]

First of all. Nothing is wrong. But not everything is right too.... That is the hardest part.
If I understand you correctly you could use all the keys in that scale.
(You can also use keys that are not in the same scale if it sounds good, or not)
Octave doesn't matter in that context, an E3 is double the frequencey of E2, and that goes for all the notes. A3 is half the frequency of A2 etc. This is where chord voicing (or invertion) is relevant. if you play e4 c5 and g5 you are still playing a c major chord G#3, E4 and B4 still e major.
You will find out when you are going from one chord to another that it may sound better if you invert a chord to make the transition easier. Sometimes you want big jumps, but the most natural way to play chords is to have as little movement as possible. But natural is not always the best...

[rocknje]

You can use any chord you want. There's no 'right' or 'wrong' way of doing it.

Thank you. To clarify a little more. So, if you chose E Major Scale then long as you use the notes in the E Major scale then you will be ok.

[robogone]

You can use any chord you want. There's no 'right' or 'wrong' way of doing it.

Thank you. To clarify a little more. So, if you chose E Major Scale then long as you use the notes in the E Major scale then you will be ok.

You can use any note if you use the chromatic scale or you can add dissonance by adding notes that aren't in the scale.

I think what is more important is what sounds right. Theory will help you to build something conventional, but breaking the rules will help you create something much more original.

[rocknje]

First of all. Nothing is wrong. But not everything is right too.... That is the hardest part.
If I understand you correctly you could use all the keys in that scale.
(You can also use keys that are not in the same scale if it sounds good, or not)
Octave doesn't matter in that context, an E3 is double the frequencey of E2, and that goes for all the notes. A3 is half the frequency of A2 etc. This is where chord voicing (or invertion) is relevant. if you play e4 c5 and g5 you are still playing a c major chord G#3, E4 and B4 still e major.
You will find out when you are going from one chord to another that it may sound better if you invert a chord to make the transition easier. Sometimes you want big jumps, but the most natural way to play chords is to have as little movement as possible. But natural is not always the best...

Thank you very much cosmicdawn. You have answered my question. I wanted to make sure that it was ok to use notes in different areas of the keyboard as long as it stays in that key.

To make sure one more time. So the chords E G# B and A E C# would be fine to use then?

[rocknje]

You can use any chord you want. There's no 'right' or 'wrong' way of doing it.

Thank you. To clarify a little more. So, if you chose E Major Scale then long as you use the notes in the E Major scale then you will be ok.

You can use any note if you use the chromatic scale or you can add dissonance by adding notes that aren't in the scale.

I think what is more important is what sounds right. Theory will help you to build something conventional, but breaking the rules will help you create something much more original.

Thank you. I understand now. I appreciate your help.

[wrench45us]

usually
the bottom most note (in whatever octave) is the root of the chord

but that's not always the case

if one is playing in a small group or emulating in software a small group, there's a certain line of thinking for pianist and guitar players of letting the bass player handle the root.
that allows for more extended chords and whatever

that's a general rule
doesn't always apply -- thinking of chord inversions

but the fundamental/root/bottommost tone will set the harmonic floor and set up certain expectations in the listener
you can deal with those expectations however you like

also usually one can think of the highest note in a chord as the lead or melody note, but that's a much looser rule

[lilith2k3]

The octave of the key doesn't really matter, as far as the progression goes. E Major will be E Major independend of the octave. But on the other hand, you'll have to watch that the Progression resp. the frequencies it represents does not clash with those of other instruments (frequencies of a cool bassline could clash with the frequencies of the kick drum e.g.).

Besides, depending on the kind of music you are into, it could be problematic, when your "voice" makes too big jumps. As a listener you are most of the time more pleased with a voice leading within -say- 2 octaves per instrument. So it would be confusing if the "lead" jumps right into the "bass". That is no fixed rule and dependent on what kind of music you want to create and what you are used to listen

[Ogg Vorbis]

Hello everyone,

I want to clarify something about chord progressions. In your DAW program, lets say you choose the octave range at C5, but you were to choose the E Major Scale and the notes are E, F#, G#, A, B, C# and D#.

When forming your chord progression is it wrong to add notes in your chord below E5? Like using note C#5. Or should you always form your chords above the key or note you have chosen and in my case is E major?

So, if your first chord is E Major, which is E G# B in the 5th octave, would it be wrong to have this as your next Chord A E C# at the 5th octave? Or should I be saying that as long as the noes stays within the E major scale then it is alright to use? So the note in question in this example would be C# in the 5th octave.

I hope I am making sense. Thank you for your help.

Jeff

How does it sound? Seriously, that's where the answer lies. Music is not like wiring a lamp where you can do something backwards or wrong and get the circuit to short out. There is no schematic diagrams for this stuff....how does it sound to you?

[cosmicdawn]

Well, I have used way too much time to read music theory. (I'm not good, just a slow learner.)
Now I spend a lot of time figuring out how I can break the rules...

So knowing the theory behind it is great, it's so much more fun breaking the rules when you know that what you are doing is "forbidden".

[sleen]

How does it sound? Seriously, that's where the answer lies. Music is not like wiring a lamp where you can do something backwards or wrong and get the circuit to short out. There is no schematic diagrams for this stuff....how does it sound to you?

There are definitely rules and diagrams. For starters one of the best is Precepts and Principles by Johann Sebastian Bach which outlines not only rules for counterpoint, but figured bass. The edition I have contains direct scans from original manuscripts and includes charts and DIAGRAMS for figured bass in the hand of the master. At the time this was written, chords and chord terminology did not exist and were not in favor. Greeks had chords, but absolutely when people wrote music they did not think in terms of chords like the world does today which in some ways is limiting. I don't care for chords myself and take a much more baroque approach to consequent tones and harmony. I think understanding harmony is important for the curious musician. Forget chords, think in harmony. By the time anyone else explains various lame rules and you learn them you will have to deal with the reality that since everyone knows them, nobody uses them. Cmon, what f**k would use a triad with the root in the bottom unless you were scoring a scene in a nursery school played on glockenspiel? The bottom note absolutely should not setup the expectation and by all means, do not kick back and just use your ears and figure hey if its good for me, it will be good for the sorry sacks that will play these damn notes in the next rehearsal and the fine people that will pay for the tickets. Don't be a poser with a computer as your theory crutch. Get real, stop pretending and learn how to write harmony. This will apply to problems of 2 voices, 3 voices yes, but also 4 and up. Chords are for kids. And please, use as much space between the notes as possible and on different instruments. If all you want to do is fake it and avoid sounding like an ass with your stupid triads, then use some presets. You know some people are aware of these traditions that go back hundreds of years and take music really seriously. If you were writing harmony for 4 awesome singers using a libretto from the best poet in your land, wouldn't you want to bring the absolute best method and harmony to bear? If you are writing music for a GOD, and his sheep, the music should have lightness and bouyancy that you can't get just plunking down fckin chords! Things come in and go at different times, there is space and you don't just give away the punchline. Where it feels it might end, extend, embrace and supercede the known. This totally does not mean doing random things, but mastering the tonal space, and the related modes. Its a hologram and you need to make stuff so that when your audience is co-constructing and making their own approximated structure while listening, its a shelter or place they can be in and find wonder.

Jazz is a modern approach where harmony is concerned and very much plays in the upper levels well beyond 3 part combinations. The ambiguity, superposition and competition of tonal center is explored in Jazz more than any other kind of music, however it is often deflated and ruined with density and clusters.

Chords are for kids and the 3-part game is not merely 2 dimensional and shaped like a triangle. Also, using one of those stupid keyboards with all the buttons will not help your mastery but keep you thinking in 2d. As a writer you need to control consonance and dissonance, but also ambiguity. The three note chord is a crutch because if fashioned in simple triadic form contains no ambiguity and consequently the listener is low glucose metabolizing in the brain and not building. Use parsimony at all levels and where 3 notes are explicit obvious and urbane use 2 and where is the tonic? Nowhere thankfully but what is implied through the MOTION and provided by the listener. These little notes are not embedded in a 3 note chunk or parcel, they are separate and in motion. Where 2 notes might be plenty, use 1. A single note in succession, in motion, can imply with but a few instances any triad you can imagine. If you need to add another voice, it had better have a good reason and take things to the next dimension.

You are barely safe only using notes in any given scale. Go ahead and permute the interval space at a piano and hear what you are in for. Pretty lame. But if you separate the notes in time using counterpoint you can get collisions or dissonance that is appealing, but that is a sensation to beware. For example force yourself to write in 4 parts using only the tonic and see how hard it is to avoid unison or dropping notes to avoid dissonance. Bach was known for being a hardass and always writing for 4 parts and never dropping notes. This was partially because of his skills in counterpoint and the modern attitude that he was so 'good' at finishing 4 parts is yet more evidence of the infection of chords on the mind. Bach would not have considered this exceptional or rigorous at all because he did not consider the straight vertical consequence of notes as the first interpretation. He didn't have to drop the notes because the parts are separated in time and interlocking and always producing some dissonance along the way. It doesn't hurt with things in motion because there is a residue of the past and the feeling of an approaching consonance, but you get this with a dissonance somewhere else which is like a spiral for the mind and the music never gets old. You can apply this technique using simple melodic structures to create surprisingly beautiful music using harmony. Chords just ruin it.

Check out Bachs' 2 part inventions. Not a chord in sight. I think you should avoid chords and think in terms of individual voices, in motion. When you do, you learn immediately a language of modes to organize multiple voices.

I think people using DAWS have some block because they have no idea where to go with tones and they get sick of using arpeggiators and various loops to cover up the fact they really have no musical inspiration, but they want to make some noise. Screw the computer and write some verse. Even if it is stupid poetry reach out into the world and find a topic that is not your inner lameness and emotional garbage but something maybe even archetypical that everyone can at least start with. With Zappa it was satire. Practice writing verse in stanzas, count out the syllables and use a rhyme if you must but be a finisher. If you make a stanza with good form- use it consistently until you break the form with an interlude. Not because its best, but convince yourself you can. Make what you need to say in that little package and say it effectively using the least words possible. All this will get you some verse that is kind of busting with powerful little nuggets that could be reminiscent, provocative or nuclear for the next layer which are notes. The nuggets should get good notes or a nice place at the end of a cadence, resolve or fermata. If you can't write solid verse don't even consider notes. If you have success it will be an accident you can't likely repeat.

The stanzas and verse can become your outer or innermost skeleton to sketch the outlines of what will be a self standing and powerful musical work. Words are not always necessary but something to separate and organize episodes into a larger scale drama if even for 3-4 minutes is required. You let a story unfold that might be using only found objects. Percussion as a discipline here can accomplish the episodes and drama, but not the harmony. You might have a sense that harmony should come at the end. After the verse, after the episodes and drama. Maybe it is not required, but if all things under harmony are not in order it will be heard and you may be looking straight in the face at unavoidable unison, absence, death.

jonathan adams leonard

[Ogg Vorbis]

Well, I have used way too much time to read music theory. (I'm not good, just a slow learner.)
Now I spend a lot of time figuring out how I can break the rules...

So knowing the theory behind it is great, it's so much more fun breaking the rules when you know that what you are doing is "forbidden".

There are no "rules" and therefore, nothing is "forbidden" or "against the rules."

There is a system of 12 notes, defining tonality and use of those 12 notes to create musical phrases. The system is "closed" because there are only 12 notes. It is a circle that closes on itself.

Familiarity of the RELATIONSHIPS within the closed system of 12 notes is powerful and wonderful.

Lack of familiarity of the system is not "illegal" but it is severely limiting in power.

People who do not know theory almost invariably complain that they come up with a melody but "don't know what to do with it," or they come up with a short phrase but feel constrained by not knowing where to go.

I think that knowing the system of 12 notes and the relationships that are possible within that system give you lots and lots of power.

With a good grounding in the language of music one can forge music in any shape one wishes as though it were liquid metal. It bends at your will.

To the uninitiated, the musical language can feel cold, unyielding and will not move or bend easily.

[robogone]

Long posts make my brain hurt.

[debra1rlo]

Long hurts make my brain post.