epicVerb 1.5 released

VST, AU, AAX, CLAP, etc. Plugin Virtual Effects Discussion
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xx JPRacer xx wrote: ps: I think 32 bit version of Windows can use 4 gig for each process running but when doing this it's using virtual memory (slow) since it can't address more than 4 gig physical ram (but I can be wrong on this).
All memory is virtual memory in modern operating systems. It isn't inherently "slow", as the support for that is at the hardware level. You might be confusing this with disk swapping or Physical Address Extension. Disk swapping is a natural part of virtual memory management and can be minimized by having enough physical memory installed. Physical Address Extension is a way for 32 bit operating systems to use more than 4 GB of memory and that indeed will be slower than normal memory access. It however isn't needed in 64 bit operating systems for the foreseeable future... ;) The subsystem that handles 32 bit apps in 64 bit Windows is itself 64 bit, so it doesn't need to do any extra trickery to give each 32 bit process all of the possible 4 GB of memory address space possible for 32 bit processes. edit : oh I see you were speaking of 32 bit Windows anyway. There there is the global limit of 4 GB for all processes in total. It can only be overcome on a per-application basis if they utilize the above mentioned PAE techniques. (Thus causing potential slowdowns.) yet another edit : It could all be more complicated than this, I was just told 32 bit Windows could in fact run several processes allocating over 4 GB in total. Naturally this would be very slow because of the amount of disk swapping involved.

And thanks Bootsie for the update, of course! :)
Last edited by Xenakios on Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Thanks for the explanation Xenakios.

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dickiefunk wrote:
Is anyone here using any of Bootsies plugins on Windows 7 64bit? I am hoping to use these with Cubase 5.1.1 64 bit.
Yes, me. :D


I'm using them natively in Reaper 32bit. Reaper 64bit has got a bridge (some kind of adapter) included which makes it possible to load 32bit plugins (and it works fine with Bootsie's plugins). I have no idea whether Cubase 64bit also features something like this. But of course you could always run Cubase 32bit in Windows7 64bit. ;)

Confused yet? :hihi:

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Great work, thank you bootsie. :)
jens wrote:
dickiefunk wrote:
Is anyone here using any of Bootsies plugins on Windows 7 64bit? I am hoping to use these with Cubase 5.1.1 64 bit.
Yes, me. :D


I'm using them natively in Reaper 32bit. Reaper 64bit has got a bridge (some kind of adapter) included which makes it possible to load 32bit plugins (and it works fine with Bootsie's plugins). I have no idea whether Cubase 64bit also features something like this. But of course you could always run Cubase 32bit in Windows7 64bit. ;)

Confused yet? :hihi:
I reverted from Cubase5/64 to Cubase5/32 on Win7/64 because Cubase's bridge is nothing to write home about. So it's Cubase5 in the 32 bit version on x64 for me.

If I have to use a plugin that utilies the 64bit memory space I fire up REAPER/x64 (works fine with almost all 32bit plugins and Rewire too).

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Thanks for all the info guys!!

I'll definitely be installing Windows 7 64bit but if using 32bit plugins in Cubase 5.1.1 is dodgy then I may use the 32bit version.

At the moment I've been using Windows XP Home on my E4600 (2.4gHz Core 2 Duo, 2mb cache ,800mhz bus) pc. I am upgrading the cpu to a Q9550 (2.83gHz Quad Core with 12mb cache and 1333mhz bus).

On my current E4600 I had a project using Garritan Steinway Pro, Addictive Drums 1.5, EzDrummer + Latin Perc EZX, GSI VB3 and ManyBass. I also had 3 instances of Reverberate convo reverb and 2 instances of Voxengo Voxformer.
I tried to replace ManyBass with NI Scarbee Jay Bass through Kontakt 4 and had a Panic out of RAM error!!

Would upgrading to a Q9550 Quad Core and Windows 7 64 bit sort this problem out?

Also, could I still add more RAM even if I don't use the 64bit version of Cubase 5? Would this have any overall performance advantages?

Thanks

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xx JPRacer xx wrote:
ps: I think 32 bit version of Windows can use 4 gig for each process running but when doing this it's using virtual memory (slow) since it can't address more than 4 gig physical ram (but I can be wrong on this).
Basically, the way is works, a 32-bit integer can only have 4294967296 (or about 4 billion) different values. Since memory in x86 is byte-addressable, this means you can address 4 gigabytes of memory with a 32-bit value.

Unfortunately, the way most operating systems work (because it's efficient) is to reserve some of the "address space" to the operating system. Usually this part is called "kernel address space" or "system address space" or something, but really it's just a part of the addressable space of memory locations of every application. Usually 2GB of addresses (and hence address space) is left to the application, but 3GB switch can modify this (leaving just 1GB to system).

You could have a lot more physical memory (RAM) in the system. There's PAE for that (though not all drivers like it), which extends physical-address space (to 36 bits = 64GB). But applications don't use physical addresses: they always use virtual addresses, which are limited to 32-bits. The application never sees any physical memory at all: all it can touch is the "virtual memory".

The physical memory then (in Windows at least) is used basically as a cache-of-sorts for files, which could be the programs loaded, or files the program "memory maps" or just some parts of the anonymous "page file". As long as you have enough physical memory to contain all this data, you will be using physical memory in practice, but normally the system is free to throw out the data, as long as it has an up-to-date copy on disk (this is called "swapping"; some memory is usually "locked" to memory too, but let's ignore that).

In fact, you might run into the "address space" limits long before you run into the physical memory limits even without PAE, even on a system with only 1GB (or something) RAM, because anything "mapped" into the address space of an application will reserve some amount said address space, whether or not you ever touch that part of memory (say, program initialization might be run once, but the code still reserves address space after that).

The amount of memory you actually are "touching" is called "working set size" and is usually not as large as the amount of memory mapped; this is actually why virtual memory was invented to begin with, and it's perfectly normal for a system to theoretically use many times as much memory, as is actually installed, and still not do any swapping, because the "working sets" are small enough to fit into physical memory (not to mention that memory can be shared if they map to the same file and aren't modified). Unfortunately, there's no such optimization for running out of address space: once you run out, you run out, and it's time to move to a system with longer addresses (eg 64-bit) or rewrite the applications to use less address space.

So, basically you have 4 different things to care about:

-address space size (on 32-bit systems that's 2 or 3GB after the operating system takes what it needs, for 64-bit software running on 64-bit system it's "large")
-working set size (the amount of memory actually needed in practice)
-physical memory (swapping starts when it's smaller than working sets in use by all the applications loaded)
-virtual memory size (most of us have disks so large it can be ignored)

Finally, when physical memory is larger than working set size, the system will use the remaining physical memory automatically for disk-caches (well, it uses it all for disk-caches in theory) for stuff that was used in the past, but not currently needed: if such stuff is needed later, it's already available in memory, and things go a lot faster. So as far as physical memory goes: it just makes everything faster.

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Benutzername wrote:
If I have to use a plugin that utilies the 64bit memory space I fire up REAPER/x64 (works fine with almost all 32bit plugins and Rewire too).

you could use this one instead:

http://jstuff.wordpress.com/jbridge/ :-)

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Wow, thank you mystran for this detailed explanation! :)

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jens wrote:
Benutzername wrote:
If I have to use a plugin that utilies the 64bit memory space I fire up REAPER/x64 (works fine with almost all 32bit plugins and Rewire too).

you could use this one instead:

http://jstuff.wordpress.com/jbridge/ :-)
Yes, I know. But it doesn't have an inbuilt sequencer. :hihi:

I really like both sequencers and they get almost the same play time but I lean more towards REAPER lately, especially because it runs on Linux too (Unlike Windows it supports all my hardware and the Jack audio system is brilliant if you can wrap your head around it).

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:hihi:

I see - being a Reaperite myself I clearly get your point. :D

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Thankyou Bootsie, for this tremendous effort. And Susiwong for the presets, and Patrick for the GUI. We're very lucky to have your excellent plugins for free. They've certainly helped to improve the overall sound of my tunes.
-- Blake Casimir : Check out my recently updated Bandcamp for melodic space techno!
http://blakecasimir.bandcamp.com
http://www.blakecasimir.co.uk

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chis wrote:Thankyou Bootsie, for this tremendous effort. And Susiwong for the presets, and Patrick for the GUI. We're very lucky to have your excellent plugins for free. They've certainly helped to improve the overall sound of my tunes.
Ermmm ... thanks for the nice words, all true in Bootsie's and Patrick's case, but I'm afraid I didn't contribute more than simple conversions of Bootsie's presets to vstpreset format. :oops:
Even worse, atm they won't show up for epicVerb 1.5 due to some internal changes, but I promise to post a working set soon, latest next week.
Keep watching Bootsie's page for a revised download.
Cheers,
susiwong

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