Using Cantabile along with a DAW on same machine

[gastric]

Cantabile popped on my radar when I started searching for a non-DAW VST host for live use. It seems to really hit the mark for usability and features. However, I'm not sure how to use it on the same PC simultaneously while running a DAW. Maybe this is not possible?

My setup:

* WinXP Pro SP3
* M-Audio Profire 610 4-in-10-out firewire interface
* A bunch of software
* Bass guitar running into the above PC, processed heavily by VST to morph the signal into bass-synth-electronica fun

Currently I use Reaper to record basic multi-track. Usually a VSTi drum, then record a couple bass or guitar lines, and maybe a couple VSTi synth tracks. Really basic stuff since I don't really know what I'm doing.

However, it's not appropriate for running racks of VST effects for live use.

Enter Cantabile!

However, Cantabile now has hooked my Profire as the audio source, and is using it as the output source, and no other apps can access the Profire. Hence, my questions:

* Is it possible to have Cantabile and Reaper both hook the Profire at the same time? From my experience this is not possible, but maybe there's some trick I'm not aware of. For example, Cantabile hooking Input 1 for bass/guitar and Reaper hooking Input 2 for a mic, and Input 3/4 for a stereo line-in from a drum mixer.
* Is it possible for Reaper (or any other DAW) to record Cantabile's output? I realize Cantabile can records tracks natively, and that's great. This mostly pertains to the previous question. How can I use Cantabile as my live VST host while at the same time using my Profire and PC to record the rest of the band at the same time?

I did browse/search through the forum and saw someone reference using EnergyXT as a VST within Cantabile. That seems like a reasonable suggestion. And maybe that's my answer. But can EnergyXT somehow access both Cantabile's processed output AND the other hardware inputs on the Profire to facilitate multi-input recording from within Cantabile? The post I read lacked any particular details.

I'm looking forward to taking this to the next step. I currently have an ungodly amount of difficult-to-use and lacking-features hardware I use to try to mangle my way into bass-synth-electronica-Land. It's cumbersome in every possible way.

Cantabile and VST could replace ALL of my hardware, make managing patches/songs much easier, make managing mapping my Behringer FCB1010 MIDI controller to the various VST much easier (much, Much, MUCH easier!) since I can map everything withint Cantabile and never have to reprogram the FCB1010 again (doin' the happy dance)... really it'll make everything so much easier, and with a way better audible end product.

I just need to figure out how to still do multi-track recording and use Cantabile simultaneously.

Looking forward to your replies.

[TiUser]

Two applications can not share the same ASIO audio device. That's more a windows issue than related to any applications.

Rewire could be one solution but it's not too probable Cantabile will ever support this. If anything is going to happen then maybe we'll see Cantabile as VST... which could be the thing you'd need to use in your DAW...

As far as I know VST's can just plug to the hosts audio/midi via the VST mechanisms. I'm not sure if it's not possibls programmatically that VST's access external interfaces, but VST is not meant to do this.

I remember other users have asked similar question, but at the moment I have no idea how to use Cantabile sessions in DAW recording scenarios without cumbersome workarounds.

I guess you can check back when Cantabile is available as VST... but I have no clue when this might happen...

[Nielzie]

Two applications can not share the same ASIO audio device. That's more a windows issue than related to any applications.

Rewire could be one solution but it's not too probable Cantabile will ever support this. If anything is going to happen then maybe we'll see Cantabile as VST... which could be the thing you'd need to use in your DAW...

As far as I know VST's can just plug to the hosts audio/midi via the VST mechanisms. I'm not sure if it's not possibls programmatically that VST's access external interfaces, but VST is not meant to do this.

I remember other users have asked similar question, but at the moment I have no idea how to use Cantabile sessions in DAW recording scenarios without cumbersome workarounds.

I guess you can check back when Cantabile is available as VST... but I have no clue when this might happen...

I have heard a lot of positive things about Cantabile but I already use another host and don't do live sessions/gigs...

It seems that it has some interesting features that "regular" DAWS don't have but because it is aimed at live sessions it misses some features of "studio" DAWS. That's why I think it would be a great idea to have Cantabile available as a VST version like EnergyXT for instance

[glokraw]

Hi, energyXT has a vst version, brings a lot of DAW things wherever it is loaded.
Heres an arp example link:

http://www.energy-xt.com/index.php?id=1103

So potentially, a lot of specialized functions can be added to Cantabile,
which already has a good share.

[gastric]

I guess what I don't know about EnergyXT as a VST in Cantabile is how it accesses the additional audio inputs unused by Cantabile.

In my example I have:

* 2 Mic inputs
* 2 line inputs
* There's also 10 available software outputs that can be routed to whatever, typically one or more of the hardware outputs

So if I set Cantabile to use the Profire it's hooked the entire driver. So it should have all available hardware inputs available to it.

I guess I need to do more review of manuals to see how Cantabile hooks the hardware audio inputs. I didn't see where you could specify exactly which input was used, such as selecting Input 1, which might make Input 2-4 available to other apps. Maybe something like it's MIDI Pass-Thru feature, but for Audio.

In the meantime I came across an article on ReWire, which sounds like MIDI-Yoke for audio which sounds like exactly what I need. Some way to route/patch the various audio channels to various apps.

[curucaman]

if you guys come up with something that works on this - please let me know. I've been looking for a long time now on how to wire Cantabile's output to a DAW for audio recording. Right now I'm using LIVE for recording, and Cantabile for live play, but everytime we work on a new song, I have to setup two different applications - one for recording and one for live play. Would love to see this happen. I know Bradr has been looking at this. Thanks.

[gastric]

From what I can tell ReWire is the technology that would support this type of behaviour. Most current DAW software supports ReWire, including Reaper and Live. However, Cantabile would need to support it as well, and it does not currently. A competing product does, but I liked the UI and work flow of Cantabile VS the other product. But having Cantabile totally lock me from recording other track simultaneously is a pretty big headache. I'd have to record things in my DAW. Bounce them to WAV/MP3, load that into Cantabile, play/record simultaneously, then use the WAV Cantabile creates from my "live" performance and plop that back into my DAW.

Then pray all of the timing syncs up perfectly. Which I suspect it wouldn't.

I absolutely do NOT want to have to try to manage set lists/patches in two separate apps, that's just insane. Plus from what I can see Cantabile effectively locks you out of the VST's UI so you can't save individual VST patches in the native format of that VST, it saves everything in some proprietary Cantabile patch file which would mean I'd have to figure out how to successfully replicate VST settings in two places.

It looks like I probably need to stop reading and posting on this forum and just try the various software to see how it works. And start learning first hand.

BTW props to the developer. Looks like a very professional application. Seems to have every feature I could think I'd want with the single exception being discussed here.

[No_Use]

Since you are using Reaper as your DAW, have you tried using Rearoute ?
Not sure if this would work with Cantabile though.

And btw you can save patches in fxp/fxb (VST format) from within Cantabile. Try the patch manager under tools (or whatever it's called, just demoed it briefly).

[curucaman]

Hey No_Use - thanks for the heads up on the Rearoute thing in Reaper. I think it's going to do exactly what I want. I am working in Cantabile and setting up all my projects. If I want to record, I start up Reaper, and then run cantabile. Change the audio output on Cantabile to the Rearoute ASIO driver, and reaper records the output of Cantabile. My guitar, bass and drums go direct into Reaper. This is awesome. Just started playing with it so I will let you know if I run into any problems. Great thing about both the applications is that they seem to run so well, I have no lag whatsoever.

[TiUser]

Sounds interesting... How is the audio routing of rearoute ASIO... i.e. how many audio channels?

[curucaman]

TiUser - looks like with the Rearoute ASIO driver, there are 16 channels I can route. I added a few master bus channels to Cantabile, and used the tools menu for the VST I am using to route the output to seperate channels, so I can now assign specific VST's to specific channels in Reaper. So far so good...

[sunhome]

Funny, this morning I got FL Studio to run inside of Cantabile as a vst; see my post and the replies here http://forum.image-line.com/viewtopic.php?t=47226

Perhaps FL Studio might do what you want as it can run as a vst even though most of the host features are available when running FL Studio this way.

Regards, James