Production & Composing Soulfull and House Music

[diijay]

As you may know soulfull and house music has been popular here on the forum, specially by it's musicality, several use of acoustic instruments and vocals.

However this style usually counts with real musicians besides the work of the actual producer who signs the track.

Usually you read that has a bass player,keys by somebody else, strings by another musician, so the producer puts everything together and mixed.
Ok he pays everybody for the work, most cases he doesn't arrange(compose) the actual instruments.

On the end HE is the one who signs the music or remix under his name.

Same happens in pop, but usually has a producer who composes and arranges everything and call musicians to read and play the parts.

Is there a Producer in Soulfull or house music who does it all by himself?
In electronic music, you gotta do everything by your own, off course doesn't have the complex harmonies or the of use of several different acoustic instruments of a soulfull house track.It's all about the groove, not much musicality,harmonies and melodies.

Sometimes the producer doesn't say on the credits who helps him to arrange the track.
Some even say he does everything and just call the musicians to play the way he wants...BS.
In my opinion in the end, the producer just made the beats on his own and put the parts together like loops.
What do you think about that?
What your opinion about it.

p.s: What I don't get is, which so much piracy those days = less profit with a remix or a song, how come some can paid musicians to do their work, maybe just to get gigs after his work is on mainstream again....hmmm good strategy??
Economically, I dunno know.

[leighbeynon]

[diijay]

Thanks for the video, this tells everything without words...
It should be ok, because they even put on youtube, I don't know...
It seems when you are good on any sequencer, plug ins, mixing,making beats and percussion you are set to go....
just hire 2 or 3 musicians to arrange the musical parts for you and that's it!!!!
In the electronic part we have Benny Benassi, he just sits there while a musican who also knows all the technical details(mixing,making beats,etc) does everything and he is the one who takes credit for and he is playing everywhere.

Beginers: Just raise money, buy protools, learn how to use itor any sequencer you are confortable and record good audio,good soundcard,compressor plus learn mixing tecnics, learn some sound design and hire some musicians to make MUSIC FOR YOU, you just have to do the beats = Soulfull Producer.

And I thought they were the best producers, because the style is the most musical....

[cosmicdawn]

You make hiring studio musicans sound like a bad thing. He he. I may respect an artist who does everything himself a little bit more, but I would use that bassplayer anytime myself.

[diijay]

No problem cosmicdawn, I just thought they would do everything alone.
However almost all big guys use other musicians.
The bad part is that they get all the credit, because I will never know otherwise.
Several people who just buy the music will never know as well.They get all the credit,more remixes,proposals and gigs.
It doesn't matter, I am just saying because it is hard to learn everything, as I am trying.
I'd rather have that bass player teach me how and why he did that instead of just playing for me.
This way I will always depend on somebody to release my own stuff under my name.
If you know music theory well, midi, Trillian I think you can achieve a very similar result by yourself.
What's more, there are BIG Producers in SOULFULL who even mention they arrange and compose everything ALONE and that pisses me off.
They say, I just call them to play for me,including sax,trumpet,string essemble....c'mon.

[cosmicdawn]

[I do everything by myself. I have always believed that if you want something done you have to do it yourself.
But now that I know that I can do decent tracks on my own I would't mind getting some help from others to make them even better.

But remember that music is still a product. The artist is just the brand name in many cases. That is even more true when it comes to R&B and chart stuff.
As I said, I respect a producer who actually make the music himself more than those who get others to do it for them,

[Nystul]

As one develops as a musician, there are only so many hours in the day. Ultimately you will focus most of your time on a few aspects that you are really good at and/or really enjoy. You may dabble around at various other things, but you will never do them at a high level. So by all means, if you are in the position to make something really good but lack the necessary skills as a trumpet player, go find one!

If you think about a big time producer working for a big time rock band, there isn't much resemblance to what someone does making EDM in a bedroom studio. The big producer isn't the featured artist, probably not the songwriter, probably doesn't play any instruments on the songs, probably has sound engineers handling the technical work of recording and mixing, etc. But despite having all these other people doing those things that they are good at, the big producer's expertise will have a big influence on the final product. He has learned to focus on the big picture and the specific things that he is good at and leave the rest to people more qualified.

Of course, I am all for people getting credit for their contributions to projects.

[leighbeynon]

Well what about all the manfactured bands who don't play don't write and don't produce some aren't even great at singing this shows when they try to sing live.the band or producer won't get any credit and most people think they do most of it,I do respect people who play write and perform but that doesn't mean none musicians can't be a part of music

[MOK19]

The original post has the strangest assertion I've heard lately.

House & electronic music has been my passion for the past 10 years. Yet I am aware of perhaps one or two house music producers who do not do the bulk of the work, aside from occasional bass guitar sampling (which they probably sequenced before asking the player to play it), and vocals.

I have seen instances where they employ more musicians for this and that, however it is the exception. Just about every artist I can think of does 80%-100% of the audible work. There are exceptions, but that is true across any genre of electronic music, and is not specific to the style.

How in the world are you getting the impression that these guys don't do most the work?

[Stomper]

The original post has the strangest assertion I've heard lately.

House & electronic music has been my passion for the past 10 years. Yet I am aware of perhaps one or two house music producers who do not do the bulk of the work, aside from occasional bass guitar sampling (which they probably sequenced before asking the player to play it), and vocals.

I have seen instances where they employ more musicians for this and that, however it is the exception. Just about every artist I can think of does 80%-100% of the audible work. There are exceptions, but that is true across any genre of electronic music, and is not specific to the style.

How in the world are you getting the impression that these guys don't do most the work?

+1

You cant get a few musician and each one plays whatever he want and than just mix it.
you start with samples to get an idea of how it should sound like. call the player and record him playing the notes that you, the producer wrote.

[diijay]

How in the world are you getting the impression that these guys don't do most the work?

see the leighbeynon video and see many others on youtube and futuremusic.

What we are saying specially on the examples is the producer does only the mixing part, all the harmonies,melodies and etc, are done by others.
Sometimes even the sound design as well, they hire sound designers to make a private bank for a specific synth.

Ther are examples that the producer(big deejay name) stays on the side while an engineer/musician do all the work including the global arrangement of the track...see Benny Benassi future music.
He only says little things and give some ideas but the other guys who actually do the work.

The thing is some doesn't even bother to learn music theory, they would rather called a musican/arranger and call it a day.

Off course we have several producers who doesn't do this at all,mainly the ones who are into more repetitive style of music other than house and soulfull house music.However even with those cases they usually have an engineer to mix and make his track bigger, they don't bother learning,hire someone good, pay and you will have back the money with gigs that your track will give you.

Wanna listen more and worst, I already heard that even big names listen to a new track from a nobody newbie producer who knows his shit and ask him to buy his track and have it release under his name.It happened and happens.

Maybe Milli Vanilli was the first one who inspire others to do the same...heheeheh.

As you know music theory,mixing,music engineering is boring,it takes too much time to learn and be good at it and as you know several resident deejays who doesn't have the patience to learn MUST release something from time to time, or even someone who doesn't have a deejay background becomes HUGE from nothing just releasing good tracks, things changed nowadays and it's very important/fundamental to produce,show results and tracks.
The pressure is on, so some cheat.

It doesn't matter but It's the ugly truth and has to be said.

[diijay]

You cant get a few musician and each one plays whatever he want and than just mix it.
you start with samples to get an idea of how it should sound like. call the player and record him playing the notes that you, the producer wrote.

Ok no problem, but you must know music theory for that.Some doesn't even know what a tritone substitution,7ths,9ths,Coltrane changes is and make soulfull house.
They get an 70's track and say do the same.
The idea is very important, sometimes it's the most important.

I am not taking all the credit out from the producers but what I am saying is that he doesn't deserve full credit and I thought the guy who release the track did everything, like all the arrangements, including the instruments.

Most of the time he has the initial idea and call some musicians to make it happen musically and he makes the beats and percussion.
Since he has the initial idea and it is his track but nobody deserves to know who helped him?
Does he deserves the full credit?

He gets all the credit alone and the gigs if the track becomes huge.

I just started this thread because I thought the producer would arrange/compose everything, musically,harmonially and I found out that rarely happens, specially in soulfull house music.

[Stomper]

Ok no problem, but you must know music theory for that.Some doesn't even know what a tritone substitution,7ths,9ths,Coltrane changes is and make soulfull house.

Sorry, but ill have do disagree. you can learn what chords and intervals you like without knowing how they are called.
Although Soulful is considered one of the musicly interesting genres of dance music, usually it is very simple if you compare it to non dance genres. like any dance music, it rely more on tention to make it interesting than on the musical stuff.


If the composer sold the rights of what he wrote to the producer than the producer can take all the credit and the composer cannot ask for precents on sells or broadcast or whatever. it is depends on the deal the two makes between them. some composer can ask for one time payment AND to get the credit.
also, even if you are right and it is rare to find a producer that also compose his music, than doesnt always true and that could be the reason theres no credit for the composer.
It is also possible that the credit just dont get printed on the cover. maybe to save a few bucks on printing, maybe something else.
But i am sure that those that need to know, do know.

[diijay]

Sorry, but ill have do disagree. you can learn what chords and intervals you like without knowing how they are called.

How would you explain to a musician to play what you want,specially if you don't use midi and don't know how is called(some producers say that doesn't usually work with midi, audio only, records everything directly to pro tools as audio).

Although Soulful is considered one of the musicly interesting genres of dance music, usually it is very simple if you compare it to non dance genres. like any dance music, it rely more on tention to make it interesting than on the musical stuff.

We were discussing here mainly soulfull house and house music, using acoustic instruments.
All music MUST use Tension, from jazz to pop,specially on turnarounds,transitions,it's a technic all songwriter use.Tension and release.
ii V I.

But i am sure that those that need to know, do know.

Regular people doesn't know, and those people who pays to go to the gigs,after the track become huge, regular fans, doesn't know.I don't think they are less important.

If the composer sold the rights....

We are not discussing the legal issues,or how they do it, only demonstrating that several producers doesn't do everything, specially the composition/arrangement of instruments.
I was one to believe that the producer, specially in genres like soulfull house have to have more skills than other genre, specially in music theory to do this genre.After talking to one(and big one) I was amazed, the guy told me: "let the music part for the musicians, focus on the sound design and drums,percussion and general arrangement."
This guy have talent and good ideas, that is very important as well.
Off course if you have only good ears you can decide which chord progression goes better or worse on top a vocal,melody.
Which one sounds cooler, but for that you don't need theory.
Same with people dancing on the dancefloor, just need to sound good.

The more electronic style doesn't demand that much of music theory if you compare to vocal house,soulfull.
The style you do is easier for the producer on the music theory part since the style focus more in sound design,percussion,repetitive grooves.
For that genre I do believe the producer does everything, at least the majority.

[MOK19]

Uh huh... future music vids and youtube... Done that once or twice.

You would have good points, except that your original premise - that most soulful house is done with a couple instrumentalists who are improvising whole-cloth - is not the case.

Supporting this is the fact that, if you're musically inclined, doing it yourself is easier to do, and more straightforward. But for those musicians who do employ instrumentalists, it is far easier, efficient, and conducive to your desired results if you lay a groundwork first - Set up a chord or bass progression, set up rhythms and arrangement that contain cues meant to illicit certain responses from the instrumentalists, etc. That way the instrumentalists are left with coming up with pretty much just flourishes, and not much else. Obviously not a big deal. With flourishes excepted, the majority of the creative and technical work has already been done.
Vocalists end up having potentially more creative leeway... And thus we often see the 'featuring [vocalist]' tag at end of the titles of certain songs.

Wrangling up instrumentalists repeatedly for recording sessions and hoping you simply stumble into something good without giving a serious sense style or direction is not a recipe for success. Indeed, if other people see that they are providing a massive part of the compositional process, we can safely assume that they won't be okay with it if this happens repeatedly and they do not get appropriate credit. It's possible that most soulful house producers have a closet full of willing and returning bass-slaves.... But it's also possible that monkeys might fly out my butt.

Most of it is done by a solo musician or a duo behind their DAWs. In most cases, samples are manipulated, used from sample packs or manually sampled beforehand. In other cases, the section is already laid out or otherwise narrowed down, and an instrumentalist is brought in simply for the sake of 'human feel' and authenticity of the particular sound texture(If one is already a musician, there's little reason beyond those to use an instrumentalist at all).

And particularly troubling is the idea of buying session players for a dance music track. Pop producers can do this because they can anticipate selling massive numbers of albums and tracks for big bucks - Popular music. Dance music has never been known as a cash cow, so it defies logic that anyone treats it as such. Unless you've already got a massive name attached, which few electronic musicians attain.

Either way, your impression that most producers do not do the vast majority of the work is... from outer space, apparently. I simply don't see how you're getting this impression, except by taking a few choice examples of the minority to represent the majority.

Btw, whats theory got to do with this?