Abusing the Media Player

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TIUser has started a new train of thought that should be a new topic.
TiUser wrote:I am tempted to reply to your interesting answers more in detail ;)

I was wondering if you had found unusual schemes, since you are always thinking of new things.

Indeed I am thinking about some "abuse" of the media players... :D But the players are just one piece of the cake...

Backings are just an inflexible static way for accompaniment and I do not like it very much for jamming and improvisation.

I am still after some replacement for arranger like auto accompaniment. But for one or another reason no software works satisfying. The least problem is to find accompaniment styles in the net, but... you usually don't find a software tone generator that reflects the sound they were programmed for. Especially no chance with the better sounding Yamaha XG styles or such with megavoice technology. On the arranger side the only program that works somehow like a keyboard is "livestyler"... but I don't trust this thing - it's unreliable. There are some other programs but it's a pain to use them... but anyway, the tone generator problem remains.

Now if you try thinking of alternatives there are additional problems. One problem is cord recognition. Think of the Ableton live way playing clips. These can almost triggered like sections on an arranger keyboard but you can not harmonize these in real time. Arrangers basically use patters around the Cmaj7 cord notes and transpose each note by a NTT - note transposition table - that dynamically changes transposition of each note in the pattern reflecting the cord you play left hand. That's a part of the style accompaniment technology. I haven't seen this in any modular form like midi VST or whatever.

Back to something more practical... I usually like at least to have some drums and bass to jam with. Bass needs NTT, luckily drums not. To get this from the Cantabiles media players in an arranger style way I could imagine one media player group for bass snippets and a second for drums snippets. The sections should switch both synced with the bar... so here we are basically with the media players...


I do have some MIDI keys designated to act as Start/Stop and Start/Pause toggles. Those make it easier to practice at the MIDI keyboard without turning to the computer.

That's what you even need some more buttons for to switch the media players the way I suggested above...


Not very original, I'm afraid. If my keyboard had some sliders and knobs, I could probably think of more things to do along those lines. But the Fatar SL880 was mostly a piano keyboard, with very few MIDI controls.

Well, I'm a kind of setup manic too, but... guess no surprise - isn't it? :D

Knobs on a keyboard can be nice and useful but I start to hate them because it makes it very difficult to stack them without a fancy stand - I am still after a more organ like setup where the keybeds are very close to each other... but there are very few boards - mostly entry level stuff without aftertouch - that come plain, without knobs... I also start thinking some of the many small midi controllers can add what one misses in control - like the Korg nano controllers - and you can put these always where you want them, for instance on top of a board stack...

Interesting that you mention the Fatar Studiologic series... I fancy with one of these too as I want to go a bit more serious with hammer action. Fatar has generally a very high reputation in terms of quality and playability. My dream is the Numa Nano, light in weight, small for an 88, stylish and without knobs and faders so I can easily put a lighter synth board on top of it.


The story ends here by now... maybe there are some interesting ideas in here... as never stop to change perspective when looking at things... :D
One possibility for a cheap, flexible, and pain-free tone generator is an old Audigy2 (or even Soundblaster Live) card. Just as these have gone obsolete, they have become absolutely useful. We have huge amounts of RAM now, and the KX drivers have removed Creative's limitations. The problem is to get satisfying soundfonts to play in the cards.

It's a job for a patient hobbyist to make soundfonts to suit, but the results are excellent. Sound quality is a decent second rate, entirely adequate for backing tracks. I don't especially suggest the use of Soundblaster as a sound card, but only as a soundfont player.
Larry

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:D LOL - great topic :D

Well, I've tried SFZ+ and some soundfonts. A soundblaster card is out of discussion for me. Anyway, this can sound fine if you look at it as any tonegenerator by itself, but the point is style compatibility...

I really like Yamahas megavoice styles but I guess there will never be a software VST that can play these well... it's proprietary multi sampling and resampling not just a matter of work for experts but a legal issue too... Yamaha already have discontinued a really good XG softsynth - probably not to compete with it's own HW products...

Concerning styles I've lost hope for any solution that even comes near to top of the line HW arrangers.

Lately I hope for more and better physical modelling VST. Maybe we sometimes get rid of the multi GB libraries a usual PC hardly can handle and get much better dynamic, expression and polyphony.

Try "Wallanders" free "Wivi" demo vst and play that live - simply amazing.
Best regards, TiUser
...and keep on jamming...

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TiUser wrote::D LOL - great topic :D

Lately I hope for more and better physical modelling VST. Maybe we sometimes get rid of the multi GB libraries a usual PC hardly can handle and get much better dynamic, expression and polyphony.
I am interested mostly in pianos. The PianoTeq modeled piano feels nice but still sounds lousy. Hardly a piano at all. It sounds good as a vibraphone.

PianoTeq has supposedly been improving its sound, but the sampled pianos have absolutely been improving their feel. There is now nothing to complain of in the playability of the Galaxy II pianos, the Garritan Authorized Steinway, or the new patches for the Akoustik piano. Per Larssen's TBO and 7 Seas Grand have always felt very good and responsive. I think complaints about piano-sample playability mostly come now from those who are not up to date on the progress.

We are at a point where storage costs are so low, and adequate CPU's so cheap that big samples are feasible to play in low-level PC's. My simple dual core overclocked Athlon plays the biggest Kontakt pianos with ease. Cheap, fast drives are easy to get in huge sizes. Samples still have a long life ahead, because hardware has fully caught up to their needs.

Nevertheless, I agree that modeling is a wonderful idea that has to be explored. It works better in other instruments that pianos. I certainly must try the Wivi instrument.
Larry

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I've tried PianoTeq lately and agree - not great - full stop.

But Yamaha and Roland both use new technologies in their all new latest HW stage pianos. Roland seems to use something like pure modeling for the piano sound now too and the demo I've seen sounds very, very promising... but maybe it's some "cheating" too, i.e. combining samples with synthesis, no clue...

Wallanders Wivi points in a similar promising direction. I've played the demo and it's amazingly dynamic. The interesting aspect here is also that instrument sections are made from n individual instruments with individual behavior rather than a single section sample.

You are right about new HW but not about loading speed... Most synths load patches nearly instant but loading samples still takes time, especially the multi GB biggies like Grand Pianos. This relative advantage will remain even on much faster machines.

I've NI's Akoustik Piano myself. It sounds fine but needs long to load. Maybe that can be managed with optimized disk streaming but I've found HD io to be one bottlenecks of computing. As a rule of thumb it is said that ram access is always 1000 times faster than HD access... and therefore paging virtual memory is such an evil in certain circumstances too. So even when preloaded Windows can always present us with unpredictable behaviour - theoretically prone to glitches and audio pops...

Maybe physical modeling isn't a competition for some of the big sample libs but IMHO the multi GB sample libs can not be the final solution either as to make samples live like you need even more sample... or tricky post processing.

Let's see what comes up next. But I am more tuned on physical modelling stuff - it's less to monitor - I'm getting tired of more and more heavy sampling stuff... Just have a look on Best Service "Titan"... tons of boring sampled synthesizer sounds... I really prefer some slimline synth emulations. :D
Best regards, TiUser
...and keep on jamming...

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You're certainly right about load times. I just timed some of my pianos for loading time into Cantabile.

Akoustik Piano Steinway (with few VST plugins) 14 Seconds.
Galaxy II Baby Grand Blüthner (similar Fx): 19 seconds.
Sampletekk Seven Seas Grand (similar Fx) 56 seconds.
PianoTeq is no longer installed, but it required barely three seconds.


These are all manageable delays for me, but their acceptability surely depends on how you use them. If you load Seven Seas and play that same patch all evening, its long startup time is unimportant. Another aid: Most samplers re-use previously loaded samples if they are still in RAM; the second time you load an Akoustik patch, it loads almost like Pianoteq, as fast as it can verify the presence of the loaded sample stem.


The Akoustik Piano library is relatively small, for its high quality and good playability. Your neighbors at NI have used effective programming tricks to bridge between a small number of velocity layers. Sampletekk Seven Seas, on the other hand, uses only a monstrous large number of layers for excellent sound and a superb touch.
Larry

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Loading Akousik Piano takes about the same time on my machine.

So maybe we agree that's not as instant as switching subsessions... :wink:

Switching instant needs to work with just one session that loads all stuff and subsessions for switching. To create such a single session is a bit tediodious - so some tools to manage this situation better would be welcome.

But I don't want to confuse starters - Cantabile goes already well beyond other hosts... don't take my words for criticism but positive inspiration what might be useful for future extentions. :tu:
Best regards, TiUser
...and keep on jamming...

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