Hi folks,
no, I don't think that this is in the wrong forum. It's about audio effects. Excellent stuff! A YouTube video:
Shogger
Audio Myths Workshop
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- KVRAF
- 3878 posts since 28 Jun, 2009 from Wherever I lay my hat
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- Skunk Mod
- 21249 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Pony Pasture
Ethan Winer is a KVR member, using his real name as a nick. You might want to PM or email him, invite him into the conversation. Or not, just figured I'd let you know.
(I remember Ethan mostly from the early PC Magazine days. Haven't kept up with his audio work.)
(I remember Ethan mostly from the early PC Magazine days. Haven't kept up with his audio work.)
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tony tony chopper tony tony chopper https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3103
- KVRAF
- 3561 posts since 20 Jun, 2002
Does any of those guys have won grammy awards?
I'd use it to back me up when I say that dithering to 16bit is useless BS, but we all know it's only valid when explained by someone who has won some holly grammys.
I'd use it to back me up when I say that dithering to 16bit is useless BS, but we all know it's only valid when explained by someone who has won some holly grammys.
DOLPH WILL PWNZ0R J00r LAWZ!!!!
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- KVRAF
- 4056 posts since 8 Jan, 2005 from Hamilton, New Zealand
...
if you can't hear the difference between difference dithering methods, then either your gear or ears aren't up to snuff. The difference between cool edit's dither and MBIT+ and no dither is pretty bloody obvious to my ears.
I like Ethan, but some of his 'theory' seems to be based around his own subjective perception, rather than real data. He's a good guy for soundproofing, no doubt, but I have to say his ears or speakers aren't perhaps as perceptive as they could be.
if you can't hear the difference between difference dithering methods, then either your gear or ears aren't up to snuff. The difference between cool edit's dither and MBIT+ and no dither is pretty bloody obvious to my ears.
I like Ethan, but some of his 'theory' seems to be based around his own subjective perception, rather than real data. He's a good guy for soundproofing, no doubt, but I have to say his ears or speakers aren't perhaps as perceptive as they could be.
I make music: progressive-acoustic | electronica/game-soundtrack work | progressive alt-metal
Win 10/11 Simplifier | Also, Specialized C++ containers
Win 10/11 Simplifier | Also, Specialized C++ containers
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
I don't want to be a party pooper but you may want to look at this thread:
http://thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=13509
...just to see some contrary opinions to some of what Ethan says in his video. Most of the people posting in the thread are recording industry professionals.
http://thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=13509
...just to see some contrary opinions to some of what Ethan says in his video. Most of the people posting in the thread are recording industry professionals.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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tony tony chopper tony tony chopper https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3103
- KVRAF
- 3561 posts since 20 Jun, 2002
ever found a website bragging about their "dithering technology" not telling you "here, take this audio example, but wait, make sure to raise your listening volume a huge lot because you won't be hearing anything otherwise, as the only way to prove our point is to stick 8bit-worth of audio data in a 16bit audio file"?rather than real data
Dithering was very useful at the time 8bit audio was still around. But these days even handheld consoles don't have 8bit audio anymore, so it's totally useless. Ironically the best-sounding ditherers didn't exist at the time they were still needed.
You may also argue that 8bit audio can still be useful for storage reasons (afterall you still see dithering in gif files in webpages), however there's more efficient audio compression to bother with 8bit audio (& even a simple ADPCM would work better).
I don't mind dithering because it's harmless, you won't hear it so why not. The problem is that lots of people think that their music sucks because they need a better ditherer.
That's sadly the reason all those myths exist: as long as there's a famous name to back them up, they're true.Most of the people posting in the thread are recording industry professionals.
I would however not fully agree with the phasing part at around 50min, I agree that it's not very perceptible for real-world recordings, but for synthesized basic shapes it's very audible, makes a lot of difference in synthesis. I also think that it's abrupt dephasing that's audible, that is, you could smoothly get a 180deg phase change from the bottom to the top of the spectrum & it wouldn't be any audible, while a straight 180deg shift anywhere in the spectrum is, depending on the material.
Edit: I hope the difference is obvious to everyone. The only difference between these saws (ok it's ogg-encoded but that won't make a diff) is the relative phases of their harmonics (first & last are pure saws).
http://forum.image-line.com//files/saws_131.ogg
Last edited by tony tony chopper on Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DOLPH WILL PWNZ0R J00r LAWZ!!!!
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
No, they aren't famous on the Womb. Bob Olhsson was at Motown and knows a lot about the history of recording but that hardly makes him famous. The closest William Wittman (weedywet) comes to being famous is in the fact he produced a well known album by Joan Osbourne.
These are just people who have worked in pro audio for decades and they hear what they hear, which diverges significantly from some of the claims Ethan makes (the primary one being that 16 bit 44.1 KHz digital audio is indistinguishable from a live feed from a good analog console).
These are just people who have worked in pro audio for decades and they hear what they hear, which diverges significantly from some of the claims Ethan makes (the primary one being that 16 bit 44.1 KHz digital audio is indistinguishable from a live feed from a good analog console).
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRAF
- 1724 posts since 10 Feb, 2008 from Berlin, Germany
It absolutely depends on the signal, if dithering makes an audible difference or not.metamorphosis wrote:...
if you can't hear the difference between difference dithering methods, then either your gear or ears aren't up to snuff. The difference between cool edit's dither and MBIT+ and no dither is pretty bloody obvious to my ears.
I like Ethan, but some of his 'theory' seems to be based around his own subjective perception, rather than real data. He's a good guy for soundproofing, no doubt, but I have to say his ears or speakers aren't perhaps as perceptive as they could be.
Ethans "theory" is more real than that eotheric bubbling about audio-stuff you hear from a lot of pros. And it's not about his perception, but about perception in general.
This video is basically about how to reliably judge things by yourself.
I really give a damn about how pro someone is, how much grammys he won and how many number1 hits he mixed. Nobody is immune to the placebo-effect, and that's sadly something a lot of pros still did not understood.
I've read a lot of totally wrong things about digital audio processing over at Gearslutz ... written by high class professionals.