Palm muted guitar samples

[robogone]

Now, now... Let's not continue fighting anymore. I am a metal guitarist too, and agree that real guitar will always sound better. Despite that, I'm still going to buy shreddage the day it is released because it sounds awesome. I think it is absolutely great for what it does!

There are very few instruments that sound good when sampled, even if they're sampled well you just can't reproduce all the subtleties of playing the real thing.

Don't think anyone has any problem with this being a good piece of software but it's not going to replace the real thing anytime soon.

[pljones]

If someone wants to volunteer to turn up and record a few bars whenever I need them, I'm all for it.

[BGC]

Maybe if you learned to play an instrument rather than use sample libraries your comments might have a little more weight behind them, but throwing around pointless insults simply because you disagree with someone with experience playing the instrument just sounds like arrogance.

I appreciate where you're coming from, but I would like to say I'm not throwing out pointless insults but merely speculating that vesper is coming across as such and it would do him well in life to drop the pretentious attitude, especially when he doesn't know someone from Adam. I do play a little guitar, and while I'm no virtuoso about it, I know enough to get by.

I never disagreed that (an adeptly performed) real guitar was not better than a sampled one, but the "real ______ is better than sampled ______" is such a ridiculous and unhelpful answer to anyone who is specifically looking for a virtual instrument. I'd say it could be argued that it's more arrogant to come in and derail a thread with how many years someone has been playing guitar and how the OP should just learn to play the real thing.

Ideally, every musician/composer would be fluent in every instrument that they'd ever want to use in a piece of music, but obviously time, talent, and money being distributed to individuals differently makes it a pretty silly thing to expect. And for those that lack the resources or experience to play their own metal guitar, I was simply agreeing (enthusiastically) that Shreddage is probably the best they'll have access to.

[ckatrun411]

Ideally, every musician/composer would be fluent in every instrument that they'd ever want to use in a piece of music, but obviously time, talent, and money being distributed to individuals differently makes it a pretty silly thing to expect.

That is totally illogical. I agree with what you are saying, "its silly."

[claw11]

If someone wants to volunteer to turn up and record a few bars whenever I need them, I'm all for it.

Exactly why I utilize guitar libs from time to time.
No, it's not going to replace the real thing anytime soon. Personally, I don't think that there will ever be a guitar lib that will sound 100% authentic.
Let's pretend that I'm writing a piece of music for a movie trailer, and want to include few powerchords to it. I am more likely to use a guitar lib than record with real guitar.

[robogone]

I appreciate where you're coming from, but I would like to say I'm not throwing out pointless insults but merely speculating that vesper is coming across as such and it would do him well in life to drop the pretentious attitude, especially when he doesn't know someone from Adam.

So calling him a 'douche' is not an insult? Don't know what else you'd call it.

And I can't see any pretentiousness in what he said at all. He made a statement based on his opinion of your comparison - how is that pretentious? I'm not entirely sure you understand the meaning of the word.

I never disagreed that (an adeptly performed) real guitar was not better than a sampled one

You did actually:

totally indistinguishable from real guitar.

[ckatrun411]

That's true, he did say that. That's why I said, "listen to the volume changing over time. Its static." And in Zircons new product in particular, the attack sounded more like an analog synth, than an electric guitar. Practically vertical. Not creamy, and smooth!

[vespers75]

No, it's not going to replace the real thing anytime soon. Personally, I don't think that there will ever be a guitar lib that will sound 100% authentic.
Let's pretend that I'm writing a piece of music for a movie trailer, and want to include few powerchords to it. I am more likely to use a guitar lib than record with real guitar.

I quite agree, I'm not knocking the sample libraries... and the use you just described is exactly what these kind of libraries are good for (and sound good doing). Now, using them to attempt to create full-on metal songs is a bit lame though.

[BGC]

That is totally illogical. I agree with what you are saying, "its silly."

exactly the point I was making, which is why I'm continually baffled why people keep suggesting that someone should just use the real thing all the time.

So calling him a 'douche' is not an insult? Don't know what else you'd call it.

Well, I'll concede, Douche is more of an insult, but it was more of an appraisal based on his condescending tone, when he threw out the bit that "clearly you don't play guitar". I'd wager that most people would consider that a douche-like thing to say.

And I can't see any pretentiousness in what he said at all. He made a statement based on his opinion of your comparison - how is that pretentious? I'm not entirely sure you understand the meaning of the word.

Pretentious: characterized by assumption of dignity or importance.

If you don't see it at all, then I guess I'm just not sure what else to say.

I never disagreed that (an adeptly performed) real guitar was not better than a sampled one

You did actually:

totally indistinguishable from real guitar.

Well, I was speaking about the demo, not every single situation ever, I suppose I should have made that clear when I said it. Man, assumptions are really killing the sense of logic that each of might possesses, aren't they? To me, the guitar sounds real. Too much consistency in volume, or whatever other thing anyone can nitpick about that particular plugin are still things that really aren't that hard to do with the right tools on even a "real" recording.

I feel bad that I've contributed to this thread being derailed so badly as it has, so once again, I'll end it by reiterating that Shreddage is probably my personal suggestion for the OP in search of a decent guitar plugin, based on his search criteria.

[vespers75]

I never disagreed that (an adeptly performed) real guitar was not better than a sampled one, but the "real ______ is better than sampled ______" is such a ridiculous and unhelpful answer to anyone who is specifically looking for a virtual instrument. I'd say it could be argued that it's more arrogant to come in and derail a thread with how many years someone has been playing guitar and how the OP should just learn to play the real thing.

That real guitar vs. sampled guitar was in response to your comments, not the OP. Derailing? I was in fact the first person to respond to the OP with a link to a library that met the qualifications he asked for (palm mutes with 8x or more RR). I didn't link to zircon's library simply because it hasn't been released yet.

And for those that lack the resources or experience to play their own metal guitar, I was simply agreeing (enthusiastically) that Shreddage is probably the best they'll have access to.

It depends really. Thrash would be better suited to black metal then Shreddage, for example.

[robogone]

Man, assumptions are really killing the sense of logic that each of might possesses, aren't they?

Yes:

it was more of an appraisal based on his condescending tone, when he threw out the bit that "clearly you don't play guitar". I'd wager that most people would consider that a douche-like thing to say.

Assuming that there was a condescending tone (How exactly do you hear the tone of spoken word?) and making the assumption that other people would think the same as you wasn't really a good basis for insulting someone.

I'm continually baffled why people keep suggesting that someone should just use the real thing all the time.

Because the real thing sounds better - people don't suggest it because the real thing sounds worse than the samples. You even said so yourself.

I feel bad that I've contributed to this thread being derailed so badly as it has

Well if you apologize to vespers for the name calling and got on with giving any advice that you have all would be good again.

[zircon]

Hey.. I didn't mean to start a flame war here Was just throwing ISW's hat into the ring.

That's true, he did say that. That's why I said, "listen to the volume changing over time. Its static." And in Zircons new product in particular, the attack sounded more like an analog synth, than an electric guitar. Practically vertical. Not creamy, and smooth!

I do want to address this. Shreddage is a DI library. The tone is completely shaped by the user. We even have envelope controls to adjust all the parameters of every patch. Plus, every demo you hear is processed, ie. it's being run through amp sims which have various overdrives, compressors, distortion, etc. along with possible master bus compression.

The way we recorded the library was to obtain max realism for rock/metal. Here's a look at one of our tight palm mute samples:

http://www.zirconstudios.com/pics/shred_sample.PNG

Now, compare this to the same note, being played in the context of a riff, by the same guitarist, using the same chain, same guitar, etc. The riff he's playing is the same "Bleed" one we mocked up.

http://www.zirconstudios.com/pics/shred_real.PNG

Obviously there are some differences attributable to factors like picking the string in a slightly different location, the string already vibrating from the previous note, etc. But the attacks as you can plainly see are very similar. We didn't do anything to take away from the natural shape of what our guitarist played, though we do give the user the capability to change it. Believe me, we spent a lot of time making sure our mutes sounded good!

[ckatrun411]

Hey.. I didn't mean to start a flame war here Was just throwing ISW's hat into the ring.

That's true, he did say that. That's why I said, "listen to the volume changing over time. Its static." And in Zircons new product in particular, the attack sounded more like an analog synth, than an electric guitar. Practically vertical. Not creamy, and smooth!

I do want to address this. Shreddage is a DI library. The tone is completely shaped by the user. We even have envelope controls to adjust all the parameters of every patch. Plus, every demo you hear is processed, ie. it's being run through amp sims which have various overdrives, compressors, distortion, etc. along with possible master bus compression.

The way we recorded the library was to obtain max realism for rock/metal. Here's a look at one of our tight palm mute samples:

http://www.zirconstudios.com/pics/shred_sample.PNG

Now, compare this to the same note, being played in the context of a riff, by the same guitarist, using the same chain, same guitar, etc. The riff he's playing is the same "Bleed" one we mocked up.

http://www.zirconstudios.com/pics/shred_real.PNG

Obviously there are some differences attributable to factors like picking the string in a slightly different location, the string already vibrating from the previous note, etc. But the attacks as you can plainly see are very similar. We didn't do anything to take away from the natural shape of what our guitarist played, though we do give the user the capability to change it. Believe me, we spent a lot of time making sure our mutes sounded good!

Both pictures look exactly the same to me. That does not make your sample library sound any more real, or any less fake! Actually, the PNG files probably have nothing to do with the sound of your library at all....



Your library sounds nice. No where have I said anything different. However, you can't invalidate what I did say with couple of PNG files just cause, "you want to." The volume envelopes of sampled instruments are static, and that fact may be just enough to cause the sharp transient I am hearing. It doesn't sound real to me.

Cheers

[RunBeerRun]

I used to have a palm mute rompler made in Maize. Not sure where it is now.

My opinion on midi guitar is its cheesy at best.

[robogone]

My opinion on midi guitar is its cheesy at best.

I think MIDI guitar can sound OK, but you're never going to match the real thing. People who are really good at programming can get close, but it's never quite there.

You're right though - badly done is sounds really cheesy.