Brick limiters vs regular Limiters

[rymdis]

Hi there!

Was wondering what the difference between a "brick limiter" and a "regular limiter" is.

I know that a brick limiter prevents ANYTHING from going over the set output, but does this mean that the regular limiter once in a while lets some transients pass through? What is the typical one to use as a last insert on my 2 bus?

Is there any wiz out there who knows the difference?

thanks for any help here!


/R

[OMNIFEX]

Hi there!

Was wondering what the difference between a "brick limiter" and a "regular limiter" is.

I know that a brick limiter prevents ANYTHING from going over the set output, but does this mean that the regular limiter once in a while lets some transients pass through? What is the typical one to use as a last insert on my 2 bus?

Is there any wiz out there who knows the difference?

thanks for any help here!


/R

Both are compressors however offer different types of settings.

A Limiter will prevent any overshoot without a lot of artefacts (pumping) that is common with fast release compressors. It retains the dynamics while consolidating the mix to fit within a certain guideline. It can however exceed the set limit if a very strong signal occurs suddenly.

A Brick wall Limiter follows the same method however prevents anything passing beyond the set level no matter how hard it is driven. You will find brick wall limiters useful if you are looking to attain a lot of volume while not exceeding a certain dB mark. However, your dynamics are compromised which can make the mix sound extremely flat.

If you have a compressor with a 2 second or longer release, it can be used as a Limiter however, there are only a few that will be able to do both.

Cheers!

[Compyfox]

Aren't all compressors/limiters with very fast attack and medium to long release in theory a brickwall limiter?

[OMNIFEX]

Aren't all compressors/limiters with very fast attack and medium to long release in theory a brickwall limiter?

Somewhat.

I've found many Brick wall limiters that follow the 1-second or less release tend to collapse on very strong bass signals.

What occurs to the Brick wall Limiter is a pumping affect because the recovery time is too short. This will also occur if there is a break in the track, which is longer than the recovery time. This is why I have less than 5 compressors in my effects chain.

The Attack can either flatten or retain the dynamics pending on the settings. A Limiter offers less of an Attack so the dynamics a prominent however not very loud. A Brick wall Limiter offers a stronger Attack at the expense on eliminating or for a better term of word flattening the dynamics. This will make the mix louder although, the sound may or may not be to your liking if high dynamic music is your cup of tea.

Cheers!

[Compyfox]

Well, but in general they are "both" limiters, only the "settings" actually declare what type of limiter this one is.

It just depends on what you prefer. In theory, both can cut peaks permanently (without overshots), in praxis you only have a more squashed sound (brickwall) or a more soft sound (standard settings).

[OMNIFEX]

Well, but in general they are "both" limiters, only the "settings" actually declare what type of limiter this one is.

Yes. Both are just compressors. Pending on what the developer is aiming for, one will excel over the other.

It just depends on what you prefer. In theory, both can cut peaks permanently (without overshots), in praxis you only have a more squashed sound (brickwall) or a more soft sound (standard settings).

More times, brick wall limitation is used in conjunction with an automatic gain to form a maximiser. Under those conditions (automatically increasing the average level while preventing any overshoot) a limiter will not help if it is not designed to perform such a task.

The limitation of the control settings is the deciding factor. Some want simplicity (one or two controls) whereas others prefer as much control as possible. Developers will keep that in mind when they are marketing their product.

Personally, I can get everything I need with the Flux Pure Compressor II. However, for those who are easily intimidated, that compressor may be too much control for the novice user to manage.

Cheers!

[Compyfox]

So we can both agree on the term "Brickwall Limiter" being just another "term" like "warmth" for better marketing?

[futurefields]

Do they not use different detection methods as well?

I believe a limiter like the one in Ozone, or the Waves limiters, or Loudmax, or any other brickwall mastering limiter is designed to detect PEAK signals. Compressors detect RMS signal, so there is a big difference there.

[Uncle E]

So we can both agree on the term "Brickwall Limiter" being just another "term" like "warmth" for better marketing?

Perhaps we can distinguish them by intention? With regards to limiters, the term "brickwall" has been added to help differentiate these new devices from the devices that existed in the first 30-40 years of their inception. None of the classic limiters do what brickwall limiters can do and very few brickwall limiters do what those classic limiters do. Conversely, the widespread marketing use of the term "warmth" has less technical merit.

[eduardo_b]

So we can both agree on the term "Brickwall Limiter" being just another "term" like "warmth" for better marketing?

I think this term has become much more widely used now, what with the obsession about loud, louder, loudest.

[OMNIFEX]

So we can both agree on the term "Brickwall Limiter" being just another "term" like "warmth" for better marketing?

Not necessarily. A Brick wall limiter does exactly what it says without the need of the user configuring the settings manually other than where to limit the dB level.

The term warmth holds no value since it can mean anything to user feels is right.

You can market the word “warmth” in audio to be anything you like. However, you cannot sell a product labelled a Brick-wall Limiter if it does not stop the peaks where the user chooses.

If a person refuses to learn how to use a compressor as a limiter, a developer can design a compressor configured to react as a limiter, adjust the settings on what he or she feels is best and, sell it to the customer.



Cheers!

[OMNIFEX]

Do they not use different detection methods as well?

I believe a limiter like the one in Ozone, or the Waves limiters, or Loudmax, or any other brickwall mastering limiter is designed to detect PEAK signals. Compressors detect RMS signal, so there is a big difference there.

Compressors can detect peaks. A limiter is a compressor with fixed settings so it can detect peaks.

Cheers!

[Compyfox]

So we can both agree on the term "Brickwall Limiter" being just another "term" like "warmth" for better marketing?

Not necessarily. A Brick wall limiter does exactly what it says without the need of the user configuring the settings manually other than where to limit the dB level.

So actually...

A classic limiter would be Kjaerhus' MPL-1 Pro, the Fairchild 670 and the limiter in ProTools - just to name three. All of them have a full setting array at their disposal.

Ont he other hand, we have Waves L1/L2/L3, TbT TLs Maximizer, IKM Brickwall Limiter. The Waves has a threshold and output gain, the TLs Maximizer has a "gain" and "maximum output" slider (and some attack modes), the IKM limiter has a gain, output and attack/release settings.


If I go by your posts about the "limiter versions", then the later ones would definitely count as "brickwall", since they feature only the minimum settings for compression/limiting.

Would that count as simple definition?

[metamorphosis]

"Brick limiters" are just heavier than metal limiters.
"Brickwall limiters" are a different kettle of fish.
Usually I use two kettles of fish, cause it tastes better overall.

[OMNIFEX]

So we can both agree on the term "Brickwall Limiter" being just another "term" like "warmth" for better marketing?

Not necessarily. A Brick wall limiter does exactly what it says without the need of the user configuring the settings manually other than where to limit the dB level.

So actually...

A classic limiter would be Kjaerhus' MPL-1 Pro, the Fairchild 670 and the limiter in ProTools - just to name three. All of them have a full setting array at their disposal.

Ont he other hand, we have Waves L1/L2/L3, TbT TLs Maximizer, IKM Brickwall Limiter. The Waves has a threshold and output gain, the TLs Maximizer has a "gain" and "maximum output" slider (and some attack modes), the IKM limiter has a gain, output and attack/release settings.


If I go by your posts about the "limiter versions", then the later ones would definitely count as "brickwall", since they feature only the minimum settings for compression/limiting.

Would that count as simple definition?

Pretty much.

A Brick wall limiter in a Maximiser by design cannot exceed 0 dB no matter how hard you drive it. It can only move downward if the signal becomes too strong for it to manage in auto-gain mode. When that occurs compression has taken place and, if the release is too short a pumping affect will ensue.

A Limiter can exceed the 0 dB mark, if the settings are incorrect by the user. Under those conditions, the user must know how to regulate the controls so he or she can achieve the desired dB level without the peaks exceeding the set ceiling.

Here is a short video comparing the LoudMax Brick wall Limiter to the Flux Pure Compressor II used as a Brick-wall Limiter. The target is –10 dB. I apologise for the video quality. It is however clear enough to see the LED indicator which is the most vital part of the video.

http://www.mediafire.com/?nqg5mmzjznj

Cheers!