Brick limiters vs regular Limiters

[matt42]

Aren't all compressors/limiters with very fast attack and medium to long release in theory a brickwall limiter?

No, there are many compressors that will let short peaks through no matter how you set them up.

[IIRs]

The MPL-1 is actually a brick-wall limiter. Its "golden" brother the GPP-1 is perhaps what you were thinking of? But that also has a "brickwall" option, so the dividing line can sometimes get blurred.

The difference is simply that brick-wall limiters guarantee not to allow peaks to exceed the ceiling you specify, usually by means of look-ahead delays. Non-brickwall limiters do not make that promise, and so are free to have a ratio a little less than infinity:1 / sacrifice a tiny bit of attack time in favour of lower distortion / less latency / a particular type of sound / any comnbination of the above.

If you are shaving the peaks off your album before rendering the master, then you probably want the brick-wall. But of course you can get by with a "normal" limiter, or no limiter at all if you are careful.

If you are limiting your drum buss for creative reasons, use whatever works. But if the limiter's main design criteria was to sound good it might work better than a limiter that prioritized a perfect infinite ratio and instantaneous attack time.

[Compyfox]

A Brick wall limiter in a Maximiser by design cannot exceed 0 dB no matter how hard you drive it.

Unless you can "adjust" the output limit of course, which is basically an "output gain" adjustment - sometimes even a "threshold" correction. TLs Maximizer is like that for example.


Hm... "Maximiser by Design", interesting name for that kind of limiters indeed.

[OMNIFEX]

A Brick wall limiter in a Maximiser by design cannot exceed 0 dB no matter how hard you drive it.

Unless you can "adjust" the output limit of course, which is basically an "output gain" adjustment - sometimes even a "threshold" correction. TLs Maximizer is like that for example.


Hm... "Maximiser by Design", interesting name for that kind of limiters indeed.

The more controls you have at your disposal the better your options of controlling complex material. Some are fond of noticeable artefacts added when limiting whereas others are not.

I would imagine on the recording end having a lot of compressors, is vital since any minor adjustment can alter the sound. If you are mastering in which, you’ve already accomplished the sound you desire through equalisation the only thing you may need is one versatile compressor to tame some of the dynamics.

I would need to refresh my self with TLS's Maximiser for it's been years I haven't used it on a project.

Cheers!

[rymdis]

Both are compressors however offer different types of settings.

A Limiter will prevent any overshoot without a lot of artefacts (pumping) that is common with fast release compressors. It retains the dynamics while consolidating the mix to fit within a certain guideline. It can however exceed the set limit if a very strong signal occurs suddenly.

A Brick wall Limiter follows the same method however prevents anything passing beyond the set level no matter how hard it is driven. You will find brick wall limiters useful if you are looking to attain a lot of volume while not exceeding a certain dB mark. However, your dynamics are compromised which can make the mix sound extremely flat.

If you have a compressor with a 2 second or longer release, it can be used as a Limiter however, there are only a few that will be able to do both.

Cheers!

Thanks for all the answers!!

A few questions regarding this.

So a "regular" limiter retrains ALL the dynamics and is therefore NOT a compressor even if its pushed hard? And it CAN under some circumstances let som transients pass. If this is the case, does it just crop off the top of the signal then?

And a "brickwall" limiter is more like a compressor and compresses more the more you push it and does not crop the top but instead compresses it?

Easy to mix these two up i guess...

Is it more important to use a brickwall in the digital domain as a last plugin on my 2bus?

Thanks again for a hot discussion

/R

[IIRs]

No, you have it all totally wrong. There is no limiter that will "retain all the dynamics": limiters reduce dynamic range, by definition.

All limiters apply compression. They simply do so with a higher ratio / faster attack time.

IMO you shouldn't be allowed to use ANY type of limiter until you have a better fundamental understanding of what they are doing.

[IIRs]

explains the fundamentals of compression.

A limiter is what you get when the ratio knob is turned up higher than approx. 10:1

A brick-wall limiter is what you get when the ratio is a perfect inifinity:1 (which in practise requires some extra trickery to achieve)

That's all you need to know right now!

[eduardo_b]

IMO you shouldn't be allowed to use ANY type of limiter until you have a better fundamental understanding of what they are doing.

But he could practice limiting various kinds of music in the privacy of his own home.

[contrary]

A brick-wall limiter is what you get when the ratio is a perfect inifinity:1

Funny that they don't call it , more accuratley, a 2x4 machine !!.





Goes in.............





Comes out!!

[IIRs]

IMO you shouldn't be allowed to use ANY type of limiter until you have a better fundamental understanding of what they are doing.

But he could practice limiting various kinds of music in the privacy of his own home.

Someone should make a limiter with dual controls...

[eduardo_b]

IMO you shouldn't be allowed to use ANY type of limiter until you have a better fundamental understanding of what they are doing.

But he could practice limiting various kinds of music in the privacy of his own home.

Someone should make a limiter with dual controls...

And a network connection.

[rymdis]

Well, i have been thought that a limiter is a compressor with infinite ratio and therefore i was supprised by this:
"A Limiter will prevent any overshoot without a lot of artefacts (pumping) that is common with fast release compressors. It retains the dynamics while consolidating the mix to fit within a certain guideline."

i was thinking that MAYBE ive missed something

But the difference i was asking about is that a "regular" limiter CAN overshoot? And a brickwall is better in my DAW?

Why even create a Limiter plugin thats NOT brickwall? Whats the benefit?

Have to practise my limiters now

(Will post another topic about compression so take a look at that one. It will contain a rather advanced question )


/R

[eduardo_b]

well, i have been thought that a limiter is a compressor with infinite ratio and therefore i was supprised by this:
"A Limiter will prevent any overshoot without a lot of artefacts (pumping) that is common with fast release compressors. It retains the dynamics while consolidating the mix to fit within a certain guideline."

I suppose this would be true if the limiter didn't raise the noise floor. Good question.

[contrary]

It depends on the source material. If you only have a few short peaks here and there and trim them , the you really won't change the RMS VS peaks relationship ( DYNAMICS) that much .

If you grind and squash like a 2x4 then there is no crest factor left. That's messeing with the dynamics a tad bit .

google "loudness wars"

[rymdis]

It depends on the source material. If you only have a few short peaks here and there and trim them , the you really won't change the RMS VS peaks relationship ( DYNAMICS) that much .

If you grind and squash like a 2x4 then there is no crest factor left. That's messeing with the dynamics a tad bit .

google "loudness wars"

But as you "trim" the transients as most people do with their limiters to be able to raise the overall dynamics even further i have to agree that you dont alter the dynamics too much when this is done but refering to my original question; i dont want to trim the transients with something that cant catch ALL of them. So from what ive read here a brickwall is the safest bet.

I still dont understand the second post with the difference. They are limiters so they should work in the same manner, even if they are brickwall or not, right? Only difference is that brickwall is programmed to catch ALL stuff.

thanks for interesting posts!

/R