How to develop the initial idea? Variation ideas.

[neueliteratur]

Hello folks,

I got tired of making one minute songs, so I've been thinking that I should really develop my variation techniques.

Let's say, I'm pretty good at making a good 8-bar initial idea... but it doesn't mean anything if I can't turn it into a piece, right?

So I sat down wrote a couple of things that I should try.

1. use the same melody one octave higher
2. use the same melody one tone higher or something like that
3. if the initial melody is ascending, add a descending one every once in a while
4. recycle the melody in minor (or the other way around)
5. play the melody the other way around (from right to left... lame idea lol)
6. add triplets
7. ostinato
8. if the initial melody is made of long notes, make a version that is made up of faster notes (vice versa)

Got good tips to add?

Appreciate it,

[simesf]

Find words to describe it & then do the opposite of those words. If it's happy, do something sad. If it's busy, do something simple. If it's melodic, make it rhythmic. The more words you find to describe it the more different directions you come up with.

Or get a book, open up a page & point to a word. Whatever the word is, you have to find a way to incorporate some nuance or association from that word; eg if the word is 'sugar' the sugar to me is fine grains - do something with a granular synth. It's also sweet - can I sprinkle a little sweetness at this point? You can also get rock sugar - put a bit of rock in at this point?

[DrawMusic]

This is a higher-level meta-idea:

Study existing songs you like and start a list of how *they* expand from 8 measures to longer sections. When you have a list of 10+ ideas, pick out your favorites from the list to try yourself.

[psenior]

What style of music are we talking about? Your post is making me think you are trying to write counterpoint, like J.S. Bach. Are you familiar with techniques such as inversion and retrograde?
I usually write music starting with harmonies and the melodies just kind of make themselves known without much effort on my part.
I don't have a good answer for you other than to listen to a lot of different types of music for inspiration and to possibly borrow some good ideas.

[TankEyes]

I'll throw in a few ideas.

Substitute a chord or bass note for another and build a new melody from that.

Create a harmony with 3rds and 5ths instead of octaves.

Add trills, slides and other fancy bits to increase the energy.

Extend your chord voicings so the cover more octaves and notes.

Slow parts of your melody down so crotchets become dotted and speed parts up to crotchets become quavers to match.

[kbaccki]

Let's say, I'm pretty good at making a good 8-bar initial idea... but it doesn't mean anything if I can't turn it into a piece, right?

I have a bajillion snippets written down and recorded... some turn into something, others just sit there, year after year, waiting for an appropriate amount of free time and inspiration.

Like psenior said: what type of music are you talking about? If it's pop/rock, then repetition is your friend. A good rock/pop/blues/R&B/country song beats you over the head with a catchy hook/riff/chorus/whatever. If you're talking dance music, then there are formulae there too. If you're doing something more progressive like prog rock or jazzy like Steely Dan or whatever, then you need to think about more drastic textures and structures. But for lots of things, simple is good.

To me it sounds like if you're "getting stuck at 8 bars" then you need to focus more attention to overall song structure then the melody. If you can map out the song structure in your head, then a good melody will (should) fall into place. E.g., is it an AABA song? Is there a bridge, a refrain? Is there a guitar solo, a break? What's the chorus sound like compared to the verse?

[Doug1978-OLD]

In addition to the good points made by the people above, lay down a draft initial 8-bar piece etc and then if it's still not happening, take a break and do/watch something else creative for a while. Going for a walk in the countryside during the afternoon always helps me for some reason.

[Ogg Vorbis]

The words, "develop" and "variation" show you that what happens after wards in music is based on what comes before. I like to say I am "growing music" rather than "writing music."

The consequent is related "genetically" to its antecedent.

So your "B" section or bridge or whatever you want to call it is implied or buried somewhere in your "A" section.

Try applying contrast, but apply it TO the genes that are already expressed in the existing tissue (switching, mutation). Then you will have a singular living organism rather than a bunch of grafted "parts" that are merely reminiscent of living organisms.

[psionic]

Also try the "less is more" approach.

A great example is with a groove. Let's say you've got a fairly happening, fairly busy groove. Rather than build on that, build UP to it. If it's a really great groove, then it can become your chorus. Therefore, you can make a simpler but related grooves for the bridges/verses simply by removing or simplifying major aspects of the groove. Like make the busy highhats a simple eighth note groove, or taking the groovy bass-snare interaction and making the bass drum part just the downbeat and beat three, etc. By the time you arrive at your original idea in its full glory, you've already laid out the foreshadowing and hinting of what's to come, and the listeners are already prepared for the part.

The same with your melody/chord progression. If it's sufficiently busy or developed, you can take pieces and parts and cannibalize them, then take those pieces and parts to develop individually.

[arbogast]

Compose something from the middle of the piece/song.

[polygon_ring]

I've often found the Oblique Strategies can help.

Here's a good online version of this: http://www.joshharrison.net/oblique-strategies/

[neueliteratur]

Thank you every body for your replies.

Create a harmony with 3rds and 5ths instead of octaves.

Could you explain what you mean please?

[Technation]

i am having trouble expanding, my variation, i work with alot of tech trance progressive trance and just Trance hehe.

my problem is, that i want to use a long 8 bar, and i want the intro/outro to be 2 min, since i am heading towards, the 7 or 10 Minut Mark.

the problem is i got trouble with variation. it is like i am kind of stuck, as soon as i put all the motivation in, to be creative with variations, i suddenly feel, that i have putted all into it, and in the end my mind is empty of any ideas, to expand it with more variation. when i then publish it, to my 8 private friends, they say, it is missing something, it is too much based on techno, and it needs more variation. i have been thinking of publishing, the intro of my song, so that i can get a vote

is there any theory, that can help me out, or atleast, a rule i can remember.

i don't know the music theory, but the funny thing is, my ear are golden

[tapper mike]

I walk into it with a form before the first note is played. Usually ABCAB but AABA x3 doesn't hurt either.

Once I know how many bars I have to play I start with the chorus first. The chorus is always the most memorable portion of the song. Then I build my verse and bridge. And finally I'll add an intro.

Intro's in pop/rock are often variations on the main theme. Get your main theme down before you try to build the intro/outro as much as a pain it is don't try to vary your main theme. Variations are nice in small doeses but if you are contantly trying out different variations you run the risk of losing the original conceopt all together.

BIAB is my scratch pad. I find a few basic "style" drum patterns enter the chords but don't allow myself to listen to the rest of the style as it can be a distration if I already have a bassline/rhythm guitar/melody idea.

The melody should fit the drum groove. The rest of the parts should support the melody not the other way round. Usually if you try to put a bassline or a guitar/keyboard ruthum part you'll find yourself rewriting the melody to accomodate the other instruments.

[innervisions]

First of all, that's one the more interesting ideas for a thread I've ever seen.

I think I can throw out ideas about this subject all day, but here are a few that come to my mind. They are more general/abstract, so I hope they inspire you regardless of genre:

1. Work with the rythmic ideas you already have: by using the same (or similar) rythmic patterns, but changing the notes and even the contour of the melody, you will get interesting ideas that sound 'connected' to each other, even though they are very different.

2. Use little segments of what you already got as basis for new sections or instrument/vocal parts. For example: try taking the first few notes of the melody in the verse, and make that a guitar part in the bridge/chorus.

3. Try making your ideas go twice as fast, or twice as slow. Also try putting them in different time signatures. See if any of these situations inspire you to move on in a new direction.

4. Do not be afraid to mess around with what you got, mute/double parts, delete and duplicate some of the notes, change octaves, structure, scales. Everything you can do to get ideas will work, even if some if some of them will not be eventually used in the song.

Hope that somehow helps!
Eyal