Scales again - Modes, this time :)

[rbarata]

Hello my friends

I have a doubt about what are scale modes, i.e., in a practical way I know what this is but I can't find a theoretical definition for it.

Thanks

[C00kie]

This is what Google found me: http://www.howmusicworks.org/hmw804.html

[rbarata]

I have been trainning scales following the "The gig book of scales" book.

For the CMaj (Ionian) it presents 5 different modes but anywhere in the book it says that these modes are called Dorian,Phrygian, etc. These are present in different pages after the Ionian mode, each one with 5 different modes.

In the link you sent, it's said that the Dorian mode of CMaj scale is:

D E F G A B C D

but in the next page it says that the E and B are replaced by Eb and Bb.

I can't understand this.

[buckshead]

You didn't read the second page carefully enough.

Starting with a scale of C major - No sharps or flats - this is important, then the Dorian mode using the same number of sharps and flats starts on D. This is D Dorian. The mode scale starting on the E but using no sharps and flats is called E Phrygian.

The important thing to remember is the gaps between notes
Major scale Tone, Tone, Semi Tone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semi tone
c MAJOR c d e f g a b C
Dorian SCale Tone, Semi Tone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semi tone, Tone
D Dorian d e f g a b c d
C Dorian C D Eb F G A Bb C

and so on - Simples

[xtp]

Check out the Mixolydian mode. [Dominant scale]

It rocks.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7, 8



As a quick answer to your Dorian mode question it can be thought of as

1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7, 8

[Gamma-UT]

Hello my friends

I have a doubt about what are scale modes, i.e., in a practical way I know what this is but I can't find a theoretical definition for it.

Thanks

Music theory books tend to skip over definitions when it comes to modes because what they mean depends on the type of music you're working with. Church modes (as used in plainchant) and modes used in guitar music have the same structure but work with different rules.

Basically, they give you different chords and scale structures to the more commonly used scales. You can regard Major and Minor as simply being alternative modes, with Dorian etc filling in the other possibilities.

Even in rock, there are different ways to use modes. One is to provide a scale that fits over a given chord for soloing. The other is a scale that provides a different set of melodic (and chord) options for writing a song.

As it's a discussion of modes, let the flames begin. (These discussions often turn bad because everyone thinks their application of modes is The One True Way).

[wrench45us]

the little thread somewhere that mentions harmonica brings to mind the common cross-harp style
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonica_techniques

which is sort of a blues natural use of mixolydian mode

using a C harmonica to play in G
somehow that seesm backwards to micxolydian, but its cross-harp
so just ignore that confusion for now

[kbaccki]

Check out the Mixolydian mode. [Dominant scale]

It rocks.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7, 8



As a quick answer to your Dorian mode question it can be thought of as

1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7, 8

Yours is the best way to learn and practice modes, IMO. The whole concept of "it's the same notes as scale X except starting on note Y" is an expedient way of describing a mode, but it's sort of a wrong way to think of them.... at least when learning them mechanically, and especially learning to hear the tonal qualities.

Code: Select all

Ionian     :  1   2   3   4   5   6   7
Dorian     :  1   2  b3   4   5   6  b7
Phrygian   :  1  b2  b3   4   5  b6  b7
Lydian     :  1   2   3  #4   5   6   7
Mixolydian :  1   2   3   4   5   6  b7
Aeolian    :  1   2  b3   4   5  b6  b7
Locrian    :  1  b2  b3   4  b5  b6  b7

So as buckshead was saying: you have C major, then C Dorian you're going to flat 3rd and flat 7th: C D Eb F G A Bb ... that's the Eb and Bb referred to. Again, practice your modes relative to the major scale... e.g., play C major, slowly a couple of times, then play C Lydian and you'll start to hear the "Lydian sound" and you'll recognize that Joe Satriani uses that all the time or whatever...

Also, rbarata... sorry to say, but the 7 modes above are not all the modes available... The above 7 could be considered the "primary" modes relative to major scales (or more generically, diatonic scales). Another set of 7 "secondary" modes can be constructed relative to the ascending melodic minor:

Code: Select all

Melodic Minor     :  1   2  b3   4   5   6   7
Dorian b2         :  1  b2  b3   4   5   6  b7
Lydian Augmented  :  1   2   3  #4  #5   6   7
Lydian b7         :  1   2   3  #4   5   6  b7
Mixolydian b6     :  1   2   3   4   5  b6  b7
Locrian #2        :  1   2  b3   4  b5  b6  b7
Super Locrian     :  1  b2  b3  b4  b5  b6  b7  (all flats!!! mmwahahaaaa)

I don't know if I'll ever need to play Super Locrian, but I think the name alone sounds cool.

[PurpleCatfishBettie]

Rather than thinking modally, consider learning the entire C Major scale, all the way across the strings, from the open strings, to the highest fret. Learn where every note of that scale is on the fretboard, and how to move between 'fingering positions.'

Learn where all of the 'a notes' are... then the 'b notes,' and 'c notes'... etc.

After that, then learn the harmonic and melodic 'a minor' scales, which are slight variations on C Major.

Once you've learned all of this, then you can slide the entire pattern up or down the fretboard, depending upon which key you want at the moment.

Another thing is to learn pentatonic scales the same way; across the strings and from the lowest to the highest.

There should be a diagram somewhere, which shows the 'super C Major scale,' across the entire fretboard.

Anyway, it might be a different perspective to look at so many of the patterns/modes as interlocking, and see the entirety of these interlocking patterns ('the super scale') across the entire fretboard.

[sammy24]

Kbaccki-- there are even more modes than that. All the modes from the harmonic minor scale, harmonic major, etc. There is definitely no shortage of modes!

There is a book from Ron Miller called Modal Jazz, Composition and Harmony, Volume 1 that goes through many of the possibilities, and explains a lot more about modes.

[kbaccki]

Kbaccki-- there are even more modes than that. All the modes from the harmonic minor scale, harmonic major, etc. There is definitely no shortage of modes!

I know, but I didn't want rbarata to blow a gasket!

[ckatrun411]

Totally Locrian!

[wrench45us]

could someone familiar with the Berklee Chords and Scales book or teaching discuss their approach?


I know Mark Levine in Jazz Theory takes an approach that certain chord types (in context) imply a scale/mode that can be played 'in harmony' with the chord. And to think of the chord in a lead sheet as a scale/mode/chord
It starts out simply enough, but like everything else gets more and more complex and detailed as it goes on

This approach has the benefit of a sort of unified field theory as it takes the historical momentum of early jass through swing and bebop and modal cool jazz and unites it all in one guide/rule set.

[psenior]

I'm not familiar with the Berklee approach, but I am of the opinion that Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book and the chord/scale approach are uselsss. Like you said, they're too complicated.

If you are looking for a unified theory, you really should get your hands on some of Barry Harris' instructional material.

[gambaytheunspoken]

Here you go. Simple and to the point.


Ciao!