Scales again - Modes, this time :)

[tapper mike]

I loved that book from the moment I picked it up until the moment I put it down











...and someday I may actually read it

Groucho Marx

If you are not taking the content in context then it won't make sense.

Listen first, train your ears to the contextual quailty of the sound.


If you base everything on Boolean values such as consonance/dissonance then everything is black and white with nothing in between. Re harmonization gives you hues and shades

[rbarata]

Many thanks for the replies

So, as far as I understood, the modes are determined by the sequence of steps or tones. The major scales, regardless of the root note, are always characterized by a sequence like this:

W W H W W W H (Whole and Half tones)


Now, help me by telling me if I am thinking correctly. So far, I've learned the following 5 types of the CMaj scale:

6th string - 8, 10 (Fret nºs)
5th string - 7, 8, 10
4th string - 7, 9, 10
3rd string - 7, 9, 10
2nd string - 8, 10
1st string - 7, 8


6th string - 10, 12, 13
5th string - 10, 12, 14
4th string - 10, 12, 14
3rd string - 10, 12
2nd string - 10, 12, 13
1st string - 10


6th string - 12, 13, 15
5th string - 12, 14, 15
4th string - 12, 14, 15
3rd string - 12, 14
2nd string - 12, 13, 15
1st string - 10


6th string - 3, 5
5th string - 2, 3, 5
4th string - 2, 3, 5
3rd string - 2, 4, 5
2nd string - 3, 5
1st string - 1, 3


6th string - 5, 7, 8
5th string - 5, 7, 8
4th string - 5, 7, 9
3rd string - 5, 7
2nd string - 5, 6, 8
1st string - 5

For example, if you take the second example, between the frets nº 10, 12, 13 of the 6th string, you have a Whole step followed by a half step which goes against the sequence for the major scale.
The only explanation is to "force" the starting of the major scale sequence in the root note of the scale, no matter the note where the scale begins.

In all the examples above, if you follow this rule, things follow the correct sequence of a major scale.

Am I thinking correctly?


Thanks in advance.

[jancivil]

the little thread somewhere that mentions harmonica brings to mind the common cross-harp style
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonica_techniques

which is sort of a blues natural use of mixolydian mode

using a C harmonica to play in G
somehow that seesm backwards to mixolydian, but its cross-harp
so just ignore that confusion for now

No confusion there, that's how it works. The notes of C major, but the tonic is G. You really don't want that major seventh F# so much in blues. That automatically gets you rid of it, unless you reach for it.

It was a mystery to me at first as to why, but there it is. It seems confusing until you look at it objectively.

[xtp]

[C MAJOR]
6th string - 8, 10 (Fret nºs)
5th string - 7, 8, 10
4th string - 7, 9, 10
3rd string - 7, 9, 10
2nd string - 8, 10
1st string - 7, 8

To my way of thinking, the first 8 notes of this pattern is C major [Ionian].

[D DORIAN]
6th string - 10, 12, 13
5th string - 10, 12, 14
4th string - 10, 12, 14
3rd string - 10, 12
2nd string - 10, 12, 13
1st string - 10

but the first 8 notes of this pattern is D Dorian

So the first pattern is T-T-S-T-T-T-S [C Major]

while the second is T-S-T-T-T-S-T [D Dorian]

So if you were to play the second pattern in the key of C, you would play

C,D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb,C [b3 & b7]

which would equate to

6th string - 8, 10 ,11
5th string - 8, 10
4th string - 7, 8, 10

which sounds very different to C Major.

Hope this helps.

[T=Tone,S=SemiTone]

[wrench45us]

No confusion there, that's how it works. The notes of C major, but the tonic is G. You really don't want that major seventh F# so much in blues. That automatically gets you rid of it, unless you reach for it.

well it's easy to get it twisted around
for example, mixolydian could be playing on D tonic in key of G

but instead it's G tonic key of C

I gues what counts is what key the rest of the band is playing in

is it C or G -- My sense is it must be G and you pick up a diatonic C harp

[jancivil]

If you're using a C harp for G, your 'key note' is G.

G A B C D E F, mixolydian. The band is 'In G' in the simplest term of that saying. Somebody say: Blues in G, you reach for a Marine Band in C. It was confusing to me the first time I played guitar behind a harp player who had a harp in the 'wrong key'. He's not. The instrument is 'diatonic' and gives you that sharp 7 and some other kinds of cornball effects, so you go with 'modality'. You could get other effects with harps in odd keys if you understand this.

Modes, are (here there are seven) intervals which relate to a tonic.

To speak of a mode as it relates to the major scale, isn't the best way to think of the mode.
To say that "I'm choosing D dorian to go with this D minor chord in a C major progression" is confused, and confusing. (You're going with C major with a C major harmony, period.) 'Dorian mode' doesn't figure into it. You're doing a layer of thought which isn't required if you equate it with 'major scale' like that's a basis for it. Historically, maybe some things can be shown to have that derivation, but the mode has - is - its own character.

W is whole, H is half:

Ionian is W W H W W W H.
Dorian is W H W W W H W.
Phrygian is H W W W H W W.
Lydian is W W W H W W H.
Mixolydian is W W H W W H W.
Aeolian is W H W W H W W.

You apply these to 'your tonic' to get these modes. Major (which is a way to employ the Ionian mode) is only at the top by convention, it hasn't more weight than these others.

[wrench45us]

You're doing a layer of thought which isn't required

that was very helpful
and makes a lot of sense

I was doing an extra layer of conceptual frame that isn't required
it may take a while to break that doen

[rbarata]

One thing that came to my mind was why did the author of the book put these 5 different types of scales under the C Maj scale category. It seems I will encounter them later on in other chapters.

Any idea?

[xtp]

One thing that came to my mind was why did the author of the book put these 5 different types of scales under the C Maj scale category. It seems I will encounter them later on in other chapters.

Any idea?

Those five scales you have listed are in order.

C ionian [C Major]
D Dorian
E Phrygian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian

If you are learning guitar and scales and modes.

Consider the 8 notes of the scale and try building it on each string.

For example quoting from your first listing

[C MAJOR]

6th string - 8, 10
5th string - 7, 8, 10
4th string - 7, 9, 10

then build on the 5 th string.

5th string - 3, 5
4th string - 2, 3, 5
3rd string - 2, 4, [5] , or alt [2nd string] 1

then 4th string, 3rd string etc. for all keys.

Then try each other mode, some you may like the sound of, some you may not.

This will help you unravel the patterns, and the sounds particular keys and modes create.

I have always found knowing the relationship of the notes around a given note helpful to improvisation, for any given note on any string, where is the closest dom7 , or min 3rd, or 5th, or b5 or octave ... etc.

Listening to the intervals and sound is very important, especially if you intend on later venturing into solo improvisation.

[kbaccki]

You could interpret the 5 scale shapes as modes, but it depends on context, particularly what is consider the root of each scale. If the root of each scale shape is on the 6th (low E) string, then those would be modal scales. In the context of "C major scale patterns", those 5 scale shapes are simply the 5 shapes of the "CAGED" method, which is why the author identified them as C scale shapes. The 1st is the "E" shape, the 2nd is "D" shape, the 3rd is "C" shape (1st string should also be 12 13 15), the 4th is "A" shape, 5th is "G" shape.

[jancivil]

I wouldn't get bogged down in guitar fretboard shapes or bass string = tonic note if I were either/any of you.
In fact if you want to get into modes, sing them. Learn them in the abstract as a row of intervals, away from the concerns of guitar playing; at some point you must do this, you might as well get cracking now. Do it at the same time as on the guitar, whatever works...

but understand that the statement: '6th string = root' Is Not True. The root or tonic note of anything (or any other musical phenomenon for that matter) exists wholly independent of a guitar or any other vehicle for sounding.

IE: Any note you find in any position, on any string, on the instrument *is* the tonic, if and when you decide to use that note as tonic note, in any application of any thing which is 'tonal' ie., has a tonic note. 'What string?' is coincidental.

[kbaccki]

I wouldn't get bogged down in guitar fretboard shapes or bass string = tonic note if I were either/any of you.

but understand that the statement: '6th string = root' Is Not True. The root or tonic note of anything (or any other musical phenomenon for that matter) exists wholly independent of a guitar or any other vehicle for sounding.

Nobody said "6th string = root" in general, however xtp's interpretation of the scale shapes makes assumptions about the roots.

xtp's interpretation of the 5 scale shapes presented above precisely assumes that the first note of each scale shape presented is the root of that "scale". That assumption places each root on the 6th string. Hence, first shape is C ionian, second is D dorian, third is E phrygian, etc. I'm only pointing out that that interpretation only holds if you're treating the first note of each scale shape as the root (in addition to whatever additional roots occur in each shape), as xtp did. If you don't make any such assumption, then the 5 scale shapes presented are simply 5 CAGED positions of C major.... nothing to do with modes... C major, that's it.

IE: Any note you find in any position, on any string, on the instrument *is* the tonic, if and when you decide to use that note as tonic note, in any application of any thing which is 'tonal' ie., has a tonic note. 'What string?' is coincidental.

Are you saying the tonic is irrelevant? I'm not understanding.

Tonics don't exist in a vacuum, but exist only in relation to other things... in the context of scales/keys/modes the other things are major 3rds and flat 5ths and sharp 9ths and whatever. I don't fully understand your last statement, but it sounds like you're saying "anything can be a tonic at any time in any context", which to me is nonsensical.

For example, if somebody says to me: play a riff over a G7 using the first scale shape presented, and now use the same scale shape to play a riff over Am7... then you very well need to be aware of the tonic. In the one case I may want to revolve around major 3rd and b7 and resolve to 1 of G major, and in the second case I may want to focus on minor 3rd and b7 of A minor and resolve to 1 of A minor. So how is understanding which specific string/fret combinations are my "tonic" in any given tonal context irrelevant?

[funktional]

basic modes are built on maj scale degrees

1 ionian on c maj from c to c
2 dorian from d to d
3 Phrygian e to e
4 lydian f to f
5 mixolidian(dominant) g to g
6 aeolian(natural minor) a to a
7 locrian b to b

[xtp]

In fact if you want to get into modes, sing them. Learn them in the abstract as a row of intervals, away from the concerns of guitar playing;

I think thats what I am trying to say.

I have always felt to some degree, the learning of and implementation of scales and modes is a perception thing; that at some point you must internalise [no matter how you achieve it] before you can further express it as a creative force.

Nobody said "6th string = root" in general, however xtp's interpretation of the scale shapes makes assumptions about the roots.

xtp's interpretation of the 5 scale shapes presented above precisely assumes that the first note of each scale shape presented is the root of that "scale".

I was trying to show that if he [for example] practices the 8 notes for the D to D progression while thinking he is playing C major, he is for all intents and purposes putting a ionian label on what could be described as a Dorian interval progression.

[if you take the progression in its pure form being a set of intervals defined from the root to its octave]

I agree that if he was soloing with a song in C major, he might decide to put in a d to d progression, but thats learning to run when you no longer walk on wobbly legs.

[xtp]

IE: Any note you find in any position, on any string, on the instrument *is* the tonic, if and when you decide to use that note as tonic note, in any application of any thing which is 'tonal' ie., has a tonic note. 'What string?' is coincidental.

I went through a period [of about 5 years] where I based all my interpretation and improvisation on the chromatic scale.

[much to the initial dismay of the rhythm guitarist, altho after a while he started to enjoy it so much, he began to push me further out there]

It was a cool headspace to be in and taught me a lot about the sounds of dissonence and how to pivot on tonal and atonal points within an improvised progression.

It broke down for me the rigidity of the scale as such, and now I build what I play through the interpretation of the interval [rather than the scale/mode]in relation to the tonal centre I am trying to emphasise at any given point in time.

Recently however Harmony has become more important to me, harmony within dissonence.