Hi,
Not sure how to ask the question so youll understand it right.
I have a basic knowledge of music theory.
i know what a scale is and the impact of choosing the right root key.
i know what chords are and like using chord voicing. but find it a bit hard to find the right chord progression as i dont know the ones that 'works' and just trying to find one by my self everytime.
until now i only wrote dance music. i did not find it too difficult to write, but i did find it very hard to write something that is unique enough, so usually i wasnt too happy with the result.
lately, i came to the conclusion that maybe what im looking for in my music just doesnt go well with dance music, but i have no idea how to compose anything else. my mind is looking for thing and my experience is leading me to another.
what i am looking for now, is something like Evanescence but with electronic instruments (i do not think it will sound anything a like, but i like how their music is written)
is my knowledge in music theory enough to focus on composition or are there other thing i should read about?
how would you suggest i should start a track? writing a chord progression and build a melody on it? or maybe i should just hit keys on the scale to find a melody and add chords on it, whatever they will be?
are there any generals rules for composition or all i need to do is too keep trying and gain the experience and confidence to make it easier.
I know these are rather large and maybe even too individual to give a straight answer. but ill take whatever i can.
Regards,
Stomper[/u]
Composition
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- KVRian
- 583 posts since 4 Sep, 2007
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- KVRian
- 1084 posts since 12 Sep, 2008 from Your basement
This questions comes up a lot and I've asked it in the past as well. The question sort of boils down to, "I understand what a spring is and I understand what a gear is. But how do I build a clock?"
We could talk all day about pieces and parts and how many teeth certain gears have and so forth. That is good information but it won't help either one of us build clocks because it is analysis and your question has to do with synthesis (not synthesis as is in Zebra 2.5, but as in integration).
After going through a lot of frustrating classes and books culminating in classroom fatigue, I've come to a couple of conclusions...
1) Theory and analysis must come FROM an integrated something. In other words, to have a set of answers, you must direct a question INTO a completed thing. Pieces and parts are a way to arrive TOWARD an answer to a specific question.
The first thing you have to do is to understand what your question is.
For example, in order for analysis and descriptions of chords, scales, cadences, rhythms you have to ask, "How does this ______ work in this particular Evanescence song?" Too often we are presented a means of analysis (chords, scales, form, etc.) without a context. We don't know what question these things are answers to.
2) My composition and my original "voice" comes from my relationship to other people's music that I happen to love.
So the future is held in the past. What I must do is to study all the songs I love, pick them apart, ask specific questions and use theory and analysis to come up with a set of descriptions that help me answer MY particular questions to gain insight.
I do not ever have to worry about being too "unoriginal" by studying other people's music. Lack of originality comes from my LACK OF FAMILIARITY with the body of music that is out there and what's possible! Not from studying it!
Lack of originality comes from my own desperately uninformed attempts to make phrases work without any knowledge of how phrases work.
What do people write when they aren't familiar with gobs of poetry? Original poetry? No, it's "You're always in my heart whenever we're apart." Cliche' and tedious and unoriginal.
So I would encourage you to listen to Evanescence songs really deeply and write down dozens of questions about them. What key is it in? What harmonies are used to get that dark sound? How does it change key from the verses to the chorus? What scales are used in the melodies? What exactly are those guitar notes playing in harmony in the bridge.... etc. for 200 pages.
Then use your knowledge of scales and chords or whatever to come up with your answers to all those questions.
Study the absolute shit out of those songs.
The result is that, yeah - you'll sound like them for a little while. But as you internalize the information over time, you will make these things your own. Inevitably.
This is what I am finding anyway. I think it's really fun to take apart "clocks" and see the relationships between all the pieces and parts and there's always that, "Oh!!! I see how that works now..."
We could talk all day about pieces and parts and how many teeth certain gears have and so forth. That is good information but it won't help either one of us build clocks because it is analysis and your question has to do with synthesis (not synthesis as is in Zebra 2.5, but as in integration).
After going through a lot of frustrating classes and books culminating in classroom fatigue, I've come to a couple of conclusions...
1) Theory and analysis must come FROM an integrated something. In other words, to have a set of answers, you must direct a question INTO a completed thing. Pieces and parts are a way to arrive TOWARD an answer to a specific question.
The first thing you have to do is to understand what your question is.
For example, in order for analysis and descriptions of chords, scales, cadences, rhythms you have to ask, "How does this ______ work in this particular Evanescence song?" Too often we are presented a means of analysis (chords, scales, form, etc.) without a context. We don't know what question these things are answers to.
2) My composition and my original "voice" comes from my relationship to other people's music that I happen to love.
So the future is held in the past. What I must do is to study all the songs I love, pick them apart, ask specific questions and use theory and analysis to come up with a set of descriptions that help me answer MY particular questions to gain insight.
I do not ever have to worry about being too "unoriginal" by studying other people's music. Lack of originality comes from my LACK OF FAMILIARITY with the body of music that is out there and what's possible! Not from studying it!
Lack of originality comes from my own desperately uninformed attempts to make phrases work without any knowledge of how phrases work.
What do people write when they aren't familiar with gobs of poetry? Original poetry? No, it's "You're always in my heart whenever we're apart." Cliche' and tedious and unoriginal.
So I would encourage you to listen to Evanescence songs really deeply and write down dozens of questions about them. What key is it in? What harmonies are used to get that dark sound? How does it change key from the verses to the chorus? What scales are used in the melodies? What exactly are those guitar notes playing in harmony in the bridge.... etc. for 200 pages.
Then use your knowledge of scales and chords or whatever to come up with your answers to all those questions.
Study the absolute shit out of those songs.
The result is that, yeah - you'll sound like them for a little while. But as you internalize the information over time, you will make these things your own. Inevitably.
This is what I am finding anyway. I think it's really fun to take apart "clocks" and see the relationships between all the pieces and parts and there's always that, "Oh!!! I see how that works now..."
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- KVRAF
- 2448 posts since 12 Sep, 2004
If you want to start by "sounding like" somebody, then breaking down and copying somebody else's stuff is a perfectly valid and useful learning experience... especially if you're trying to get a handle on a genre that you like, but don't know where to begin. Most of what musicians do is molded by the music and musicians that they are influenced by. Seems like a "duh!" kind of a statement, I guess, but the long journey in search of your own sound and style 99.999% of the time starts by copying what came before. At some point you should definately develop your own sound (it's almost inevitable as your writing/playing skills increase over time), but unless you really have some far out ideas like a Stewart Copeland or a David Byrne or a Donald Fagen or whoever then don't be surprised if your stuff still sounds like other people's stuff. That's OK too! Just listen to the genres that you like... it all sounds like a lot of the same thing, doesn't it? But it's all respectively "good" because it connects with us in some way. So there's an element of don't fix it if it ain't broken there...
Copying compositional style and mechanics is obviously much harder than copying the playing style of an individual musician. You need good ears to pick apart a tune in terms of overall structure, bassline, melody, chords, etc... hearing all the important foundational bits. Sometimes that is very difficult with very stylized stuff (like Evanescence!
), even if the underlying music is relatively simple. Layers and layers of synths and guitars can make something very simple sound much more complex than it actually is. The good news is that with forums like this if you need a kick start with a chord or melody or whatever there are usually others with more experience than you that are willing to point you in the right direction. But I would strongly suggest developing your ear for finding chords, melodies, basslines, etc. on your own as well, esp. if you already have a foundation in music theory and are comfortable at the keyboard or whatever. That will only add to your compositional skills in terms of hearing your own chords and melodies (and even whole songs!) in your head.
Copying compositional style and mechanics is obviously much harder than copying the playing style of an individual musician. You need good ears to pick apart a tune in terms of overall structure, bassline, melody, chords, etc... hearing all the important foundational bits. Sometimes that is very difficult with very stylized stuff (like Evanescence!
), even if the underlying music is relatively simple. Layers and layers of synths and guitars can make something very simple sound much more complex than it actually is. The good news is that with forums like this if you need a kick start with a chord or melody or whatever there are usually others with more experience than you that are willing to point you in the right direction. But I would strongly suggest developing your ear for finding chords, melodies, basslines, etc. on your own as well, esp. if you already have a foundation in music theory and are comfortable at the keyboard or whatever. That will only add to your compositional skills in terms of hearing your own chords and melodies (and even whole songs!) in your head.-
- KVRAF
- 2448 posts since 12 Sep, 2004
I hadn't read your reply befoe submitting my own, and I agree 101% with what you wrote there... So that's two firm votes for "don't reinvent the musical wheel".Ogg Vorbis wrote:[...]The result is that, yeah - you'll sound like them for a little while. But as you internalize the information over time, you will make these things your own. Inevitably.
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- KVRist
- 63 posts since 25 Jan, 2010 from Moscow, ID
Ditto the above posts.
Start composing. When you don't know what to do first, or next, look for possible answers in other real music. Theory is just an aid for understanding real music.
For specific answers to some specific questions, try the lessons on my site:
http://drawmusic.com/HowToWrite/
Start composing. When you don't know what to do first, or next, look for possible answers in other real music. Theory is just an aid for understanding real music.
For specific answers to some specific questions, try the lessons on my site:
http://drawmusic.com/HowToWrite/
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- KVRAF
- 2217 posts since 15 Jul, 2003
there are some approaches that use language as an analogy
a chord is a word. a 2 or 3 chord progression a sentence -- an 8 bar line a paragraph, a 32 bar song a story
and in that analogy it's a good thing to learn how certain chords work together to form these ideas. Marc Sabatelli in 'Harmonic Language of Jazz Styandards' talks about how useful it is to learn and practice certain phrases/progression so they're at your fingertips, so to speak
that includes how to transition from one phrase to another
as I've been very slowly working my way through various books, I've had the experinces many times of 'oh so that's the name of the chord that makes that sound' or 'so that's that transition' (definitely true when I came across the 3rd to the flat 9 jump -- I'd been looking for that for a long time)
anyway it takes a bit to build up a vocabulary, but it's not that hard to get started with a few standard progressions and various turnarounds
just like the 'real' composers and the march of history you'll get tired of the simple easy ones and start to mix it up with variants as you go.
a chord is a word. a 2 or 3 chord progression a sentence -- an 8 bar line a paragraph, a 32 bar song a story
and in that analogy it's a good thing to learn how certain chords work together to form these ideas. Marc Sabatelli in 'Harmonic Language of Jazz Styandards' talks about how useful it is to learn and practice certain phrases/progression so they're at your fingertips, so to speak
that includes how to transition from one phrase to another
as I've been very slowly working my way through various books, I've had the experinces many times of 'oh so that's the name of the chord that makes that sound' or 'so that's that transition' (definitely true when I came across the 3rd to the flat 9 jump -- I'd been looking for that for a long time)
anyway it takes a bit to build up a vocabulary, but it's not that hard to get started with a few standard progressions and various turnarounds
just like the 'real' composers and the march of history you'll get tired of the simple easy ones and start to mix it up with variants as you go.
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- KVRAF
- 7829 posts since 20 Jan, 2008
kbaccki, Ogg Vobis
Those are both excellent replies.
Those are both excellent replies.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 583 posts since 4 Sep, 2007
Yes, and all other replies as well. very helpful.tapper mike wrote:kbaccki, Ogg Vobis
Those are both excellent replies.
But how will i answer them?So I would encourage you to listen to Evanescence songs really deeply and write down dozens of questions about them. What key is it in? What harmonies are used to get that dark sound? How does it change key from the verses to the chorus? What scales are used in the melodies? What exactly are those guitar notes playing in harmony in the bridge.... etc. for 200 pages.
my ear is not trained enough to recognize these things.
i think i can find the key, but i doubt if i can find chords and scales by my self.
Is it important if i find them my self? i thought about finding the information on the net and then play it with synths. i think it will be easier for me to analyze and understand what they have done and what is going on looking at a piano roll.
but am unexperienced so not sure if this method will actually work.
Regards,
Stomper.[/quote]
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- KVRian
- 1084 posts since 12 Sep, 2008 from Your basement
It will be! Your ear is going to ship off to boot camp. Once your hearing gets trained, you will start to IMAGINE things. Hearing something internally will help you compose and you'll start to have the ability to identify what you are imagining in your head.Stomper wrote: my ear is not trained enough to recognize these things.
Even when you improvise with your instrument, you'll still need to imagine and figure out (hear) what you are imagining.
Okay...Ear Training Boot Camp...Put on your favorite Ev. song. Start with the melody and pick it out note by note. Go to the bassline note for note.
At the same time you can get one of those books that Wrenchsus5 always talks about. They might be a bit jazz oriented, but maybe she/he can recommend a good pop-oriented one.
Hear that bugle playing? That's revele, YEW MAGGOTT!!!!! Fall in! Hup! Hup! Hup!:x
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- KVRist
- 350 posts since 11 May, 2008
I fully agree what has been said before, but I would like to add a bit: I'm a very visual and mathematical guy, so for me, looking at a score, partition, sheet music helps a lot. I mainly build my songs in written score now. I can compose an entire tune in score, knowing it will sound well, without even pressing a key on the piano. That comes with training.
I agree that training listening and using a keyboard and a piano roll can work very fine with some people. I just wanted to tell, that can be other ways. And working with sheet music for me Is very good. Specially when you can find the sheets for almost every tune out there in the net, and it helps a lot to study the songs: you can learn the melody, the chords, the rhythms, the structures. It makes it a lot more easy than to go all by ear!... at least for me...
I agree that training listening and using a keyboard and a piano roll can work very fine with some people. I just wanted to tell, that can be other ways. And working with sheet music for me Is very good. Specially when you can find the sheets for almost every tune out there in the net, and it helps a lot to study the songs: you can learn the melody, the chords, the rhythms, the structures. It makes it a lot more easy than to go all by ear!... at least for me...
Play fair and square!
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- KVRAF
- 2217 posts since 15 Jul, 2003
the good books for pop-oriented are the Rikky Rooksby books, including the latest package that presumably brings together all that came before
I've always composed (if one wants to call it that) at the keyboard or piano and maybe starting with some idea or 'borrowed' from a song and see what happens.
The more I've learned about theory the more options I have for where it goes -- some of those I can hear ahead of time, some my fingers just find and I sort out what to call it later
playing along with with favorite artists is something I started rather late, but again theory helps identify the key or tone center and that guides/informs the most likely choices
I've always composed (if one wants to call it that) at the keyboard or piano and maybe starting with some idea or 'borrowed' from a song and see what happens.
The more I've learned about theory the more options I have for where it goes -- some of those I can hear ahead of time, some my fingers just find and I sort out what to call it later
playing along with with favorite artists is something I started rather late, but again theory helps identify the key or tone center and that guides/informs the most likely choices
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- KVRAF
- 7829 posts since 20 Jan, 2008
Notes are important, also important is the treatment you give to them.
Develop a sense of phrasing. Think What do I want this to feel like. When you listen to your favorite artists pay special attention to how they form the sound via expressive techniques.
Great musicians readily acknowledge that they stand on the shoulders of the giants that went before them. You can cop someone else's style then infuse it with your own persona and make it your own. It will make your playing more deliberate.
Develop a sense of phrasing. Think What do I want this to feel like. When you listen to your favorite artists pay special attention to how they form the sound via expressive techniques.
Great musicians readily acknowledge that they stand on the shoulders of the giants that went before them. You can cop someone else's style then infuse it with your own persona and make it your own. It will make your playing more deliberate.
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- KVRian
- 1020 posts since 4 Jun, 2006
I actually misread the meaning of this; but aside from that, buy yourself a good notebook, they are handy and quite an amazing tool.tapper mike wrote:Notes are important.
Among other things my notebook is full of riffs that I spontaneously come up with from time to time.
My notebook and pencil generally live right next to my gear.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 583 posts since 4 Sep, 2007
thnx again for all the replies.
Im trying to analyze the song 'your star' from the open door album.
but keep getting stuck. when she sings and all the instruments play together, i can hear which play what (the bass for example). how do you do that? i can only hear the lead, and thats also when shes not singing).
Stomper.
Im trying to analyze the song 'your star' from the open door album.
but keep getting stuck. when she sings and all the instruments play together, i can hear which play what (the bass for example). how do you do that? i can only hear the lead, and thats also when shes not singing).
Stomper.
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- KVRAF
- 2448 posts since 12 Sep, 2004
Wow, you picked a real... uh... simple tune to try to figger out there... 
This should help with the chords: http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/e/e ... r2_crd.htm
This is a good example of a very layered tune with a lot going on... starts and stops, open tinkly piano voicings, chug chug guitars, spooky Voices of the Apocalypse(tm) Choirs from the Seventh Ring of Hell, and the like. And your worried about the bass?
But seriously, in this case your best bet is to either get the sheet music, or if somebody broke down the tab or chart online dig that up. You'll save yourself a lot of time up front. From there you can break down the overall song structure as well as the constituent parts... there are some repeating ideas there like the C Am Dm at the backend of each verse, the repeating "I can't see your star" motif as central to each verse, etc. But also some wrinkles like the final chorus over the bridge chords instead of over the chords of the 1st two choruses... interesting little device there -- switch up the progression on the way out, and the new progression gives the last chorus sort of a "resolved" feel (especially with that Choir from Hell). Definately not a simple composition, though most of the core elements and motifs are fairly simple. Oh, and for the bass... for song this complex, keep it simple. The reason you can't hear it is because it's most likely going to be pounding out root notes and not much else (except for the first chorus).
This should help with the chords: http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/e/e ... r2_crd.htm
This is a good example of a very layered tune with a lot going on... starts and stops, open tinkly piano voicings, chug chug guitars, spooky Voices of the Apocalypse(tm) Choirs from the Seventh Ring of Hell, and the like. And your worried about the bass?
But seriously, in this case your best bet is to either get the sheet music, or if somebody broke down the tab or chart online dig that up. You'll save yourself a lot of time up front. From there you can break down the overall song structure as well as the constituent parts... there are some repeating ideas there like the C Am Dm at the backend of each verse, the repeating "I can't see your star" motif as central to each verse, etc. But also some wrinkles like the final chorus over the bridge chords instead of over the chords of the 1st two choruses... interesting little device there -- switch up the progression on the way out, and the new progression gives the last chorus sort of a "resolved" feel (especially with that Choir from Hell). Definately not a simple composition, though most of the core elements and motifs are fairly simple. Oh, and for the bass... for song this complex, keep it simple. The reason you can't hear it is because it's most likely going to be pounding out root notes and not much else (except for the first chorus).