Guitar scales and speed - How fast?

[kbaccki]

What I mean is this: If I play the CMajor scale straight, without any variations, on top of chord progression Dmin7 Gdom7 Cmaj7, I should start the scale in D when the Dmin7 chord starts and be sure that I reach the note G simultaneously with chord Gdom7, the same to the C and Cmaj7.

I guess I didn't catch what you were asking then...

If your intention is to simply play linear scales root-to-root over a progression, then you might want to jump or navigate to the roots to start "at the right place". But if you're talking about using linear scale runs as a melodic device, then generally speaking it's not critical (nor is it necessarily desired) to align root tones with chord changes. For example, the 3rd (major or minor) is an important tone relative to a particular chord -- you could start or center a melodic idea around the 3rd and eventualy resolve to the root of the chord (or not at all). Here's a contrived example using linear scale runs but focusing on 3rd tones (I put the note names under the tab, and chords on top):

Code: Select all

   D-7        G7           Cmaj7
|------------------------|-----------|
|------------------------|-----------|
|------------------------|-----------|
|----------10-9----------|-----------|
|---------------12-10----|-----------|
|-13-12-10------------13-|-12--------|

  F  E  D  C  B A  G  F   E  

Melodies/improvisations usually don't rely solely on playing scale X, then scale Y, etc.... because that sounds like somebody playing scales over chord changes. Linear stuff typically includes a little extra spice added to make things interesting, like playing repeating patterns up or down a scale. For example, you could make a little scale run that covers a lot of ground by harmonizing the triads of the scale up or down, or grouping notes (e.g., 16th notes as C D E F, D E F G, E F G A, F G A B, ... etc.). Arpeggios or broken chord tones are also very useful to harmonically connect tones. Straight linear runs are typically used to get from point A to point B, where the notes in between are not as important as where you start and where you end. But a scale run can start anywhere, doesn't have to start/end on roots. For that matter, chromatic runs are typical and useful as well, so not everything has to fit strictly within scale X or scale Y, especially for passing tones and linear runs connecting anchor tones. Know what I mean? You'll hear all sorts of wacky stuff whether you're listening to a shred or metal solo or jazz or blues or whatever. It would probably be worth googling some info on improvisational techniques and devices.

I guess the point is your melodic ideas don't have to start/end on roots, but the tones that you choose to play over a particular chord should make some harmonic sense. And the stuff that is not "correct" should at least be getting you to some point of melodic/harmonic resolution. If you play too much "incorrect" stuff it starts to sound like you're just playing in the wrong key. I think the rules here is: if you're playing something you shouldn't be playing, then it generall won't sound good.

As I was playing it, I could "ear in my mind" a typical blues chord progression and noticed that the pentatonic scale it self is a blues solo (or is it the other way around?).

The pentatonic scale patterns are probably the single most important thing to master on guitar, IMO. They are used everywhere, and you can do a heckuvalotta cool stuff just with pentatonics. They're also good for recognizing repeating 4-note box shapes over the fretboard in different octaves... I would recommend approaching all 5 pentatonic shapes/positions upfront, rather than get stuck within one or two shapes. The sooner you can think up/down the fretboard, rather than just across the strings, the better. I posted a couple of links on page 2 regarding pentatonics, and in particular this "hopscotch" exercise, which I think is a really good way to practice pentatonic shapes:

[rbarata]

If your intention is to simply play linear scales root-to-root over a progression, then you might want to jump or navigate to the roots to start "at the right place".

That's it!
This was just a basic concept that I wanted to confirm. As you said, melodicaly, it would be very poor (or at least, boring) to make the scales do the melodic line.
I didn't heard yet your example (firewall doesn't let me) but I can see already what you mean: it is not a requirement to start the melody on the same note as the chord. There are other notes, which are harmonic with the chord note, that can be used.

Melodies/improvisations usually don't rely solely on playing scale X, then scale Y, etc.... because that sounds like somebody playing scales over chord changes. Linear stuff typically includes a little extra spice added to make things interesting, like playing repeating patterns up or down a scale. For example, you could make a little scale run that covers a lot of ground by harmonizing the triads of the scale up or down, or grouping notes (e.g., 16th notes as C D E F, D E F G, E F G A, F G A B, ... etc.). Arpeggios or broken chord tones are also very useful to harmonically connect tones. Straight linear runs are typically used to get from point A to point B, where the notes in between are not as important as where you start and where you end. But a scale run can start anywhere, doesn't have to start/end on roots. For that matter, chromatic runs are typical and useful as well, so not everything has to fit strictly within scale X or scale Y, especially for passing tones and linear runs connecting anchor tones. Know what I mean? You'll hear all sorts of wacky stuff whether you're listening to a shred or metal solo or jazz or blues or whatever. It would probably be worth googling some info on improvisational techniques and devices.

Harmony is the key here.

The pentatonic scale patterns are probably the single most important thing to master on guitar, IMO. They are used everywhere, and you can do a heckuvalotta cool stuff just with pentatonics. They're also good for recognizing repeating 4-note box shapes over the fretboard in different octaves... I would recommend approaching all 5 pentatonic shapes/positions upfront, rather than get stuck within one or two shapes.

From what I saw, pentatonic scales are the most easier to understand because they're easier to "integrate" in a song. Once you do that, you start to understand for yourself many of the doubts I've been posting here.

Many thanks for your replies and good examples.

[phishfacemountian]

ICK I just play them past the point I fell good about them....it seems to take a little longer then when I think I can move on...

[Ldizzy]

what a question

I am reminded of some advice I came across regarding practice:

keep it musical; you're playing music -- even if it's only scales

I would think fluid, rather than speed

one way to do this is to add some swing to scale practice
I'm not sure that would be approriate for every genre, but it works for me

words of wisdom..

ill add to that..

create.. ull come across ur limits when ull imagine things youd like to express but you couldn't execute... then ull be driven to practice even more...

[rbarata]

Now I'm focused in trainning all 5 types of the C Maj scales, I mean, playing all of them in a row.

[jancivil]

But I have to admit, as someone who has a tough time improving speed, I think most of the time speedsters just "wank off" and never talk about what they did to get to that speed. Did they start at BPM x and increase by 1? 5? What is considered proper speed improvement? Per week? per month?

Some people are more athletically inclined than others. Speed is athletics, it's not more or less than that.

In any case, even total jocks work for hours and hours, and then work some more. According to their own bodies and developmental abilities.

Some of us had to cut our losses on some categories. I have a sense of melody and went with that; I have a real problem with fast alternate flatpicking, so fuggit, I developed something less unnatural for me.

I will say this, a focus on speed for a beginner isn't the best idea really. Focus on your sound, if you HAVE to practice scales (which can be a total crutch in a practice regimen, Trust Me), get the thing SOLID in all ways, esp the tone.

[Sascha Franck]

Late reply, but as this thread has been (rather senselessly) bumped anyway, why not?

I may reply to the occasional other issue raised in this thread one day (or not), but first let me try to get back to the original question about "speed requirements" or so.
First off, let me tell you that I'm doing this guitar playing thing professionally (read: my entire income is made by playing live, in various contexts) and - hopefully without patting myself on the back too much - I've been teaching with more or less fine succes for almost two decades (I'm only doing it occasionally these days). I'm just saying this to make clear that I'm not exactly talking out of my ass.

Anyway, if you ask me, when it comes to learning scales, at least at first, speed is absolutely irrelevant. And I really mean it: ABSOLUTELY irrelevant. And IMO that's even true in case you wanted to become a shredding monster (*knock on wood* that this is not the case, there's too many shredders already...).

What you want instead of speed is exactly two things:
1) Accuracy.
2) Comfort.
If you always keep focused on these two main "ingredients", speed will come in more or less automatically. Believe me, it will. Or, if you prefer it the other way 'round: There's no proper way to play faster without accuracy and comfort.

To develop accuracy, here's a few (randomly selected) things to keep an eye on:

- Hold your guitar so it feels "right". Seriously, a lot of the fun can be spoiled just by that. An example of what to watch out for: For most folks, picking goes a lot easier once the guitar is hanging relatively low, with the strings forming just about a 90° angle with your body. That way, the picking arm can hand down realtively relaxed (so there's not much tension in your shoulder) and the pick can easily hit the strings without any additional angles.
Unfortunately (unlike you have ape like arms such as Steve Morse), this usually doesn't go hand in hand with what you want for your fingering hand/arm. The left (well, usually the left...) actually much prefers a neck position like classical guitar players hold their axes. It's more like a 45° angle or so. In addition, for the fingering hand, it's also a lot more comfortable to have the neck almost as high as possible. This is reducing a lot of the stretching issues you run into when having your guitar in a low position.
So, what you need to find out is the best compromise for you (and just you). Don't let anyone "trick" you into whatever "hey, axe slingers only look cool when your balls are covered by the body" thing. If that is important for you, go ahead, but in case it isn't, f*** it. You need to feel well while playing, that's the only important thing.
I can't stress enough how important this is. Fwiw, after long years of having the guitar strapped moderately low, more or less recently (ok, it was kind of an ongoing process) I changed to quite a higher position. Might have to do with the fact that for a lot of my jobs (which is theatre playing) I have to sit, so the guitar comes up anyway - and I don't want things to be too different when standing and using a strap.

- When you practice scales, have a look at your finger movement. It should be as minimal as it gets. This is best done in front of a mirror. A mirror has some other good side effects: You learn not to always look down while playing and you will most likely notice any unwanted tensions in your shoulders.

- Make sure to check out how much finger pressure is required. Many people tend to use a lot more pressure than what's needed. A well maintained electric guitar with a common string gauge almost plays by itself. So, have a look at how much pressure is needed to get a clear tone out of the thing (at moderately strong picking levels). Play a few different notes with as little pressure as it needs.

- When you play distorted, make sure that each and every note comes out clear without any other open or "accidentally fingered" strings ringing. This is a key point for any distorted playing. Usually, a clear overdeiven sound is a result of several damping techniques combined. Most often you will find your picking hand resting on the bridge at the low strings and only lift it up when you actually need those strings. The left hand may (or may not) dampen the low E (and probably A as well) strings by wrapping the thumb around the neck. And especially when it comes to bendings, you may want the lower numbered fingers to dampen the next lower strings (Example: When you bend on the B string, using your middle finger, you may want to slightly touch the G string with your index finger to dampen it - that's also why bendings with the index finger are quite tough to manage, simply because there's no lower "dampening finger" left).

- For your picking hand, as long as you're not advanced, go for alternate picking only. Don't even think about "economy", "speed", "sweep" and whatever picking styles. A well developed alternate picking is *the* foundation for any tight guitar playing. It's probably worth to take note that even the most advanced speed/sweep/economy players (such as, say, Paul Gilbert, Frank Gambale, Steve Vai, etc.) also have *most excellent* alternate picking skills. Try to make sure that your down- and upstrokes sound as identical as possible.
For a little twist, you may want to practice with down- or upstrokes only, but I can't stress it enough that proper alternate picking is one of *the* keys to sucess (which, obviously, is just as true for rhythm guitars of all sorts).

- IMO it's best to practice with moderately strong picking levels (sometimes perhaps even rather strong). I always find it a lot easier to go back to lower picking levels than practising at low levels and then bring it up.

- As with the fingering hand, try to keep picking movements minimized. In the end, for some true "raking" (or so...), you may want larger movements, but for practising, movements should be as small as possible.

- Experiment with picking accents. Start with accenting all downstrokes (should be easy), proceed with accenting upstrokes (somewhat harder), then try something such as accenting each third note, so you accent down/upstrokes alternatively (this is when things become tougher).

- Every once in a while, you could consider to have a lesson or two from an experienced player/teacher. He/she will correct your most essential "mistakes". Make sure that he/she only concentrates on those (in case you don't want regular lessons, or can't afford them).

- *ALWAYS* use a metronome (or some quantized beat, so it's a little less boring). The worst thing that could happen is you cheating yourself. With a metronome, chances are better that you don't do so.

- Record yourself. Yes, even while practising. While playing, you need to focus on many things, so before you're really familiar with stuff, you probably won't be able to actually listen to your performance properly.


Regarding "comfort", here's a few things coming to mind:

- Once you are remotely familiar with the shape of a scale, start to break it down. For example, just play 5-note "rows", such as (let's stick with C major here) C-D-E-F-G-F-E-D. This is something you can play in a loop and it's already a much more musical "event" than an entire scale. After a while, proceed to the next note, so the pattern goes D-E-F-G-A-G-F-E. Also try with rows suitable for, say, triplets, such as C-D-E-F-E-D. Or, a little extended, C-D-E-F-G-A-B-A-G-F-E-D.
If you think about it, once it comes to some actual playing (be it for soloing, simple lines, composing and what not), you will hardly ever play the entire C major scale over 2+ octaves, simply because it's ultimately boring. And why would anyone want to practice something ultimatively boring?
Also, this is improving your speed a lot more than playing a whole scale - all in "musically relevant mini scales".

- As has been said, try other scale patterns, such as C-D-E-F, D-E-F-G, etc. Again it's making sense to not practice these over the entire 2 octaves. Try a pattern such as C-D-E-F, D-E-F-G, A-G-F-E, G-F-E-D. Again, this is a fine pattern filling 1-2 bars (depending on whether you're playing 8ths or 16ths), so it's making more musical sense.
Also, make sure to check things such as playing the scale in thirds. For example: C-E-D-F-E-G-F-A, then one step up and back down: B-G-A-F-G-E-F-D - as you can see, you can again fill 1/2 bars with that.
The next step would be to start these smaller patterns at each step/position of the scale.
Again, this is making more musical sense and it's also a way quicker method to develop speed than just practising your scales all the way up and down.

- Put your scales to good use!
Actually, make this "PUT YOUR SCALES TO GOOD USE!!!!!!!!!".
Start with simple 1 chord vamps or so. Have a nice beat and just some C maj vamp. Then play! Don't stress yourself at all, take your time to carefully listen to how each and every note of the scale sounds against that chord - I'm sure you'll notice how some notes may sound smarter while others don't (in case of a C major scale over a C chord, most likely the F sticks out most as it clashes with the E of the chord).
Don't expect to play fast runs any day soon, there's no need for it yet. Rather try to develop a "melodic sense", experiment with finger vibrato, slides, bendings, etc. All these are a lot more important for a players personal "tone" than fast runs.
Also, as long as you keep an eye on the things mentioned above (the accuracy stuff), speed will really come in just naturally.
Make sure to use some other chords of the C major key and play the scale against it. I suggest trying with Amin, G7, Dmin first. That way, you'll automatically cover the most relevant "modes". Make sure to closely listen to which notes sound how against a certain chord.
Also, as it's really easy (yet not exactly trivial) on guitars, move everything up/down a halfstep or two, so you automatically cover more keys.

--------------------

Finally, as said, I think if you follow all (or some) of this, speed will come in naturally. There might be a day when you decide that you really want to become a top shredder, so you may need to concentrate on some specialized speed building lessons - but I think that all the points mentioned above will still be valid.

Also, I think it's a lot more important to proceed to the next scale position(s) rather quickly, instead of spending too much time in just one position. When you listen to (and look at) great players, you'll defenitely notice that they have a fine control about scales all over the neck. I'd also like to note that certain "scale shapes" are found multiple times on the fretboard, so once you learned them in one position, it should be no big deal to also use them in another position - this is why I really recommend working with "mini patterns", these can really be found multiple times all over the neck (keeping the exact shape).
In general, while I think that a more or less proper knowledge of the most important scale positions is a good thing, in the end "horizontal" playing is a much more interesting (and musically valuable) approach. Not only will you cover a broader tonal range, you will as well find your personal "sweet spots" easily. That's why I personally try to focus more on transitions between positions, playing on one string only, using 3- and 4-note-per-string scales, etc. If anything, I want "ultimate freedom" all over the guitar neck.

In the end, I'd like to quote this from a few pages ago, as it really nails things down:

The long-winded answer:
I think it depends on your goals as a guitarist. If you wish to be a shredder, then one never stops attempting to play scales, licks, and riffs at as fast as one can play cleanly. But as fast guitar isn't a prerequisite for most musical genres, whatever is a comfortable pace for you is ultimately the pace you should play. In a nutshell: learn to play as fast (and as cleanly) as you need to in order to express yourself musically, or as fast as necessary to play a composition accurately.

Bear in mind that playing speed is only one aspect of music. Many guitarists make beautiful music without using much speed at all since the choice of notes, phrases, melodies, chords, and arpeggios are at least as--if not more important than--speed.

While I too can be impressed by athletic guitar work, bear in mind that being too focused on speed can be detrimental should one develop carpal tunnel, tendinitis, and arthritis due to the repetitive stress necessary to maintain the ability to execute high speed chops. Also human aging and mass produced guitars (that don't give wrist/hand/finger ergonomics high priority) too make the shredder clique prone to chronic hand problems.

That was an excellent post and worth reading again, at least IMO.

So much for now.

- Sascha

[cosmonauttransfer]

I learnt to improvise by playing over the teletext music on tv and over my favourite records. That way you develop your ear aswell as your theory. You should learn to hear the musical effect of a scale. For instance the scale comprising the notes A Bb C# D E F G A is the major phrygian mode, or D harmonic minor. Its sound is very eastern/arabian sounding, however you wish to describe it and has been used by guitarists such as Ritchie Blackmore, Huw Lloyd-Langton(Hawkwind), Ozric Tentacles etc... The sound or character of the scale is important. Music is also about musicality; it is not the olympics. You only need as much technique as is required ti execute a musical passage with musicality and accuracy. There are many guitar players who claim to be influenced by "Bach" etc.. yet I have never heard any piece of Bach played as fast as some of these people play. They are impressive, but ultimately empty.

Jan Ackermann, Ritchie Blackmore, Dave Gilmour, Robert Fripp, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Randy Rhodes, Tony Iommi, Alex Lifeson, Dave Brock, Robin Trower, Wishbone Ash, Huw Lloyd-Langton, Steve Hillage, Peter Green, Manuel Gottschnig, Martin Barre, are just some of the musically interesting guitar players to listen to. They all have individual voices. There are many others. They are also song writers, not just uber-widdlers.

[rbarata]

I've been keeping my daily practice of the scales, half an hour to an hour, daily. It's not much but it's consistent.
Today, comparing with the first week when I started it, I can see that speed comes naturally. If you focus on technique and clearliness of your playing, your ability to playit at higher speeds comes naturally.
So far I've been practicing for 2 months the C Major scale in 5 different types. I think it's time to move on to D Major scale, even though my C Major is still not perfect. Just to avoid boredom.

[PurpleCatfishBettie]

Sascha, I used to try and sling the guitar low, like Jimmy Page. After awhile, i realized it was difficult to play that way; and wondered as well whether guitarists like Jimmy/Slash (and apparently Steve Morse) all have long arms.

Anyway, what i ended up doing with regard to positioning, was to sit down and play the guitar comfortably, then adjusted the strap to hold the guitar in that same position, when standing up.

It's like an old Beatles' pic, with the guitar up 'chest high,' but it's much easier to play that way.

[Sascha Franck]

Sascha, I used to try and sling the guitar low, like Jimmy Page. After awhile, i realized it was difficult to play that way; and wondered as well whether guitarists like Jimmy/Slash (and apparently Steve Morse) all have long arms.

See, it's not only a matter of long arms but also about how you want to play. There's some pretty good reasons why one may want to play thwe guitar hangung lower, such as being able to grab the low E- (and partially A) string with your thumb. But all that also pretty much depends on your style, the kinda music you're going to play, etc.

Anyway, what i ended up doing with regard to positioning, was to sit down and play the guitar comfortably, then adjusted the strap to hold the guitar in that same position, when standing up.

Almost the same here. Just that I don't have my axes strapped up *that* high, they're hanging a little lower than while sitting. Call me a fashion whore - quite fine with me.

It's like an old Beatles' pic, with the guitar up 'chest high,' but it's much easier to play that way.

I think that the Beatles were quite extreme, especially John Lennon, who (apparently) has adjusted some kinda Banjo technique to suit his guitar playing.

Anyway, IMO it's defenitely worth thinking about this very issue. Personally, I'm hanging the guitar higher than what I'd like from an aesthetic POV - but who'd give a damn? I just like being able to play whatever I want instead of only looking cool. And fwiw, RATM's Tom Morello isn't exactly the worst "role model". And he's got his axes strapped extremely high.

- Sascha

[rbarata]

Hello, my friends

Many thanks for the replies.

Sasha covered a lot of points which are very important. One of the most important to me is the "confortability" when playing. I never tought about it, at least consciously. Now that I'm playing a lot more than I used to, I noticed that I've been thinking about it. I've beem playing seated which gives a lot more control over the fretboard. When I was playing in bands, 20 years ago, I always used to put the guitar high enough to make me confortable. I never cared much about the visual aspect of these things, and I think I never will. In fact, I always though how could some guys play with a lower guitar. It must be a project by itself.

[Hovmod]

A guitar teacher once told me that if you speed up too soon, so that you f**k up, you're actually practicing your mistakes. I can attest to that. I play the same mistakes always.

[rbarata]

A guitar teacher once told me that if you speed up too soon, so that you f**k up, you're actually practicing your mistakes. I can attest to that. I play the same mistakes always.

That's right!
Humans (and animals) can be conditioned. ex. because you are used to follow always the same route to your home, sometimes you get there even if you were distracted and not paying any attention to it.
That's the same with mistakes, unless you do something to stop, you get used to them and repeat them naturally.