developing rhythmic proficiency

[wrench45us]

I've given this some thought.
I've also listened to just about every version of 'Night in Tunisia' on YouTube.

1) most tunes are based on melody or riff/phrase -- that has to get established then people fool a bit with shifting syncoptions -- even if the original phrase and/or melody had its own syncopation

2) what lead instruments do is different in this than comp instruments: lead instrumnents can run with a new set of accents in a run. Comp instruments usually provide some space.

3) Here's my thinking -- most syncopation has to do with dropping a beat, and then on the next or some subsequent beat tapping the 'pickup' note and hitting the next beat or tie'ing over across that next beat -- at least that's the way drummners do it and it seems to work for piano comping (and bass) as well
From that it's a pretty simple exercise to play a straight on the beat bar, then drop beat 1 add pickup on beat 2, return to play straight, drop beat 2 add pickup on beat 3, etc. do the pickups on more than a single beart -- do all 4 and it's disco -- move them around and its funkified

[jopy]

Is anyone aware of books or programs...

Why books or programs?

Listen to and imitate/copy the music you want to play like.

Need more details?

sometimes it's helpful to build up a highly generalized skill through dedicated practice before turning to an embedded example of performance. the generalized skill can help one not only absorb the material of one's influences, but also helps one to see how the practice of one's influences can be modified and changed in ways not anticipated by the influence in question. also, some of the people who influence me are very high-end rhythm experts, and some more intermediate steps would probably help me comprehend what they're doing as a starting point.

[beboop]

sometimes it's helpful to build up a highly generalized skill through dedicated practice before turning to an embedded example of performance. the generalized skill can help one not only absorb the material of one's influences, but also helps one to see how the practice of one's influences can be modified and changed in ways not anticipated by the influence in question. also, some of the people who influence me are very high-end rhythm experts, and some more intermediate steps would probably help me comprehend what they're doing as a starting point.

well, yeah. What you're looking for is solkattu (or konokol), the Indian rhythm training system of hand claps/gestures and counting syllables.

There are at least a few books available, 'You Can Ta Ka Di Mi This' by Todd Isler is a pretty good one, less than $20 on Amazon, starts simply just counting straight subdivisions of 3 and 4, moves quickly to 5, 7, 9, superimposing one feel on another, on to metric modulation, comes with a CD. Not much text, but just enough to get you started on the exercises.

something else that will help with this, google 'weird metronome', it's a freeware metronome, lets you set up patterns specifying volume/patch for each subdivision, and save them as presets. You'll pretty much have to have some sort of infallible, external reference to internalize the trickier superimpositions. And it gets tricky pretty quickly.

The other side of this is you don't have to get very far with it to appreciate the utility and the superiority of the solkattu counting system -- things that are awkward to count and feel in Western counting syllables become trivial (well, not trivial. they become easy to feel, and they feel good, as they should).

Take something like a gankino, a Bulgarian dance rhythm in eleven (basically 2+2+3+2+2 or 4+3+4, although other groupings appear within the tunes). Good luck internalizing that feel in Western counting syllables. But in solkattu, it's

TA ka di mi TA ka ta TA ka di mi

and when the internal accents shift, that's easy too

TA ka di mi TA ka di mi TA ka ta

and so on.

so, solkattu (aka konokol, there may be some distinction, dunno, afaik the terms are used interchangeably). Solkattu is what you're looking for.

[revorg1]

check out ted reeds syncopation. pages 43 and 44 yield some cool results if you read the top line alternating kick and snare while keeping straight eights. good for a drum and bass type groove. but really endless if change the right hand/ high hat figure. kind of like the gary chester systems. also the louie bellson book modern reading text in 4/4. using the systems approach enough material in syncopation for life long study.

[kbaccki]

to clarify my question, i already know how to play on off-beats well, i'm thinking of the more expansive definition of syncopation which covers a wide variety of differences in rhythmic displacement. wrench is on the right track here, i'm thinking more of jazz syncopation like wayne shorter or joe henderson, for examples.

I don't have any specific book recommendations... but it sounds to me like what you need is a good dose of polyrhythms -- rhythms against rhythms. This is more than just playing "accents on the off-beat" or whatever, but is more of a systematic rhythmic application. Thinking of a segment of music in more than one rhythmic frame of reference (i.e., at the same time) might open a world of rhythmic possibilities compared to hearing the segment in a single, rigidly structured rhythmic frame of reference. Polyrhythms give you a natural syncopation, as strong beats of one rhythm play off strong beats of the other(s).

E.g., good example of time warping: ... applies to any instrument, despite the fact that he's just a really good drummer! Listen to your favorite soloists and compers and you're bound to hear them playing time against time.

I think the solkattu recommendation could be useful too...

[jopy]

thanks for all the recommendations guys. i'll check into these and report back in a bit.

[wrench45us]

http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Polyrhythm.htm

the polyrhythm makes a lot of sense.
a friend had to go away to conservatory to explain to me what McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones were doing on those albums

all I could tell was McCoy Tyner's left and right hand seemed to be completely independent

[tapper mike]

If you are the serious jazz / blues person you know that each musician plays their space giving space to the other musician.

Playing with a metronome isn't about matching the beat as it is about establishing the beat. The serious bebop player puts the nome on 2 and 4 for a reason.
That is where the real swing comes from
pick up on 8:20

Once you get that down. Pick up Band in a box and study the jazz styles.
The band parts "fit" as a jazz band would play together. Where each musician has their own space while not stepping on the other parts.