Tritone substitution on older songs.

[Jake Jackson]

I've been trying to learn more about two chord substitutions—the tritone of the fifth chord and what I think is a iiib aug tritone substitution for the vi in a vi-ii-V-I sequence.

In the latter case, I'm thinking of the movement in older songs , such as "If I Had You" from I to iiib aug (?) to ii. It's moving towards a brief stay on the V before resolving to I. In other words, since I don't trust my own nomenclature, the notes, chords and progression in Bb are:


Bb-D-F (I)
Db-E-A (iiib aug) (?)
C-Eb-G (ii)
C-F-A (V in 2nd inversion, often)
Bb-D-F (I)

My questions, in case you're wondering:
Is that Db-E-A chord an aug minor chord, or is there a better way to think of it? It appears to be an alternative to a milder sounding iiib dim (Db-E-G) in that same chord sequence.
Is there a good source of information about how these two substitutions are used in older songs? I can play many variations, and I'm hearing many possibilities. I understand that one can use a triton sub just about anywhere, but my focus is just on this older sound. Any books or sites that spend some time on this?

[DrawMusic]

I don't think there's any such thing as an aug minor chord. It's an A major triad with the 3rd (C#) in the bass, i.e. 1st inversion. The fact that it's called Db instead of C# makes no difference to how it sounds. The resonance of the 3 notes of a major triad with each other overwhelms any sense of "minor" or "augmented", which is why I say there's no such thing as an aug minor chord.

That said, it's an odd progression. I don't think I've ever seen it in class or in the wild. It works because of the strong chromatic motions of some of the notes: D -> C# -> C and F -> E -> Eb.

My "analysis" is: You can use just about anything as a passing chord, if enough of its notes create strong chromatic motion from the "source" to the "destination" chords.

[Jake Jackson]

Well, I've run into the same view--that there's no such thing as a minor augmented chord, and it does make sense to see it as an A chord. But, but, if considered as a Db chord, it's also a tritone away from the vi, which would make sense of it as a substitution...

Seems as though I've heard it a lot, in any case. It becomes particularly recognizable if you step down chromatically on the upper part, so that from the A note in the Db chord (or A chord or whatever it is), you play Ab and then land on the G note of the Cm chord. A 1920's sound?

[DrawMusic]

I'm not sharing the broad idea that "anything a tritone away is a substitution". There's a specific reason that dominant 7th chords a tritone apart work as substitutes for each other: the 3rd and 7th of one chord trade places to become the 7th and 3rd of the other chord, but either chord contains the same dissonant tritone (3rd/7th or 7th/3rd) which typically resolves to a consonant interval in the next (target) chord.

Now in your next example of the notes A-Ab-G, at that point (when the Ab note is played) you just have a complete "chromatic approach chord", Dbm, resolving to the Cm.

[Jake Jackson]

Well, you're right--the Gm and the Db don't share any notes that invert. Hm...Just a chromatic step down obscured (to me) by the changed bass note and the addition of an upper root note. Still seems odd that the vii seems to substitute for vi in the progression. It does work to just land on the G and make it the root of a Gm chord, for an entirely different sequence, but here, the Gm seems to actually go away.

Thanks. Off to explore what this can do.

[kbaccki]

Jake, where did you get the chords in your first post? Did you pick those out yourself or from a sheet? Just curious...

I wasn't quite sure what you were referring to but I just listened to a D. Krall version of the song, and then it clicked... I think I know the turnaround you're referring to that has the oldey style sound... I think it's common in those old stride piano tunes, but I'm not sure if it goes beyond just a simple passing chord for that second chord in the sequence. I think the more complex harmonic substitutions and whatnot came a little later, but maybe Someone Who Knows can drop some Jazz Knowledge on us...

I think the common turnaround ou're referring to simply uses a dim7 as a passing chord, and the key is the chromatic movement of the bass starting with D in your case:

Bb/D - Db dim - Cm - F

Does that sound about right?

EDIT: oops, I meant F as the V chord, not G...

[Jake Jackson]

Hey, I like that too, for a similar sequence. (Do you mean either Gm or F as the last chord, before the return to the I?) It's not the turn-around, though. (See below.)

What voicing are you using? (I don't understand your D in the bass) What I worked out was:

Bb-D-F
B-D-Ab
C-Eb-G
C-F-A
Bb-D-F

Something else that sounds interesting, in an old fashioned way, at the end of that sequence to give it more finality:

Bb-D-F
B-D-Ab
C-Eb-G
C-F#-A
D-F-Bb

I worked out the chords after looking over some that didn't seem to sound right. Maybe I was voicing them wrong. But it's the end of the A section (almost called it the verse, but I'm not sure that would be the way to describe it):

I could teach...etc
I could be glad...etc

Bb----------------A\C#--------Cm---F------Bb
I could change the gray skies to blue, if I had you

Not the definitive version of the song. These chords just seem to work. But I want to play around with your version. It's probably closer to the original intention. It's a popular sequence? I'm as interested in learning more about these older voice-leading sequences as the specific song. Unless Ms. Krall were to stroll over...

[Jake Jackson]

Yikes. I went off in an entirely different direction, yes? You wrote Db and I somehow went off into another land. Must be thoughts of D. Krall. I understand the D under Bb, now. (But how do you get to that D?)

But, yeah, the Db dim was the point of departure. I think I just thought that adding the A to the top gave it a better, wider sound. Which left me wondering what the chord was--since it started off as D dim but changed the flatted 5th to a raised 5th, I was reading it as an augmented minor chord.

[tapper mike]

Here are two handy concepts to keep in mind.
It's not limited to b57 Any chord with the 3 and the 7 note can be subsituted.

Eg You are subbing a G7 G-B-D-F
Any chord with the B and the F are fair game. E7b9 for example.

Also harmonic justification is applicable anywhere as long as it is not overdone. Listen to the Beatles. Paul McCartney would pull uncommon chords if it somehow justified the melody. Such as a C major chord in a song that was written in E

[Musicologo]

What's the doubt?? It's a simple progression and absolutely no substitutions whatsoever...

Bb-D-F -> Bb
Db-E-A -> A
C-Eb-G -> Cm
C-F-A -> F
Bb-D-F -> Bb

In Bb, it's I-VII-ii-V-I

The second chord it's a sensible chord (it could work better if it was diminished, like C-Eb-A).

[Jake Jackson]

It just took me some time to see the vii chord because of the inversion and because I was altering a Db dim to get the chord. The sequence is simple, you're right. Is it a popular sequence, though-- I--vii--ii--V--I?

[Nystul]

In Bb, it's I-VII-ii-V-I

The second chord it's a sensible chord (it could work better if it was diminished, like C-Eb-A).

I don't think it could work better if it was vii diminished. It's the chromatic downward movement which sets up the ii chord here. vii dim going to ii is not so great to me (it has stronger pull back to I). But this chromatic sequence I think has a strong character that will probably set the tone of the song, so it's not a "safe" choice for just any song.

[VicDiesel]

I don't think there's any such thing as an aug minor chord.

Oh? The "James Bond" chords are Cm - Cm+Ab - Cm+A - Cm+Ab. Calling that second chord anything but an augmented Cm rather misses the point.

Victor.

[Musicologo]

Uh?!? cm+Ab=Abmaj7 (Ab-C-Eb-G)

What the heck would be an Aug min chord?... There's no such thing...

An Aug Chord would be C-E-G#. Aug means you have two major thirds in a row. If the first third is minor, then you don't have an Aug chord, you have other root -
C-Eb-G#, would be Ab-C-Eb in the first inversion.

[seacouch]

I don't think there's any such thing as an aug minor chord.

Oh? The "James Bond" chords are Cm - Cm+Ab - Cm+A - Cm+Ab. Calling that second chord anything but an augmented Cm rather misses the point.

Victor.

That's known as a "line cliche". In that context, I'd refer to it as Cmi(#5), or Cmi(b6) if it were a descending line. Cmi(b6) is a legit chord ID (technically the same as Ab/C, but still correct) and can be seen as a voicing for a modal, "aeolian" sound.