KVR Audio

mcnoone · Post by **mcnoone** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:30 am

I'll make it as short as possible.
Use an Axiom25 controller.
Notes are cutting off short(randomly notes will play only the attack but not the expected sustain) only on certain presets in some vst/au and Live instruments.
The problem happens on 2 different Apple computers, and 4 different daws, about 6 different vst/au products and over 20 something presets exhibit this behavior.

M-Audio forum tech guy says it's most likely a problem with the Axiom25 from it happening on 2 different macs.
I want to check my old M-Audio Oxygen8 first before I send it in for warranty repair.
Oh...but my Oxygen8 does not work with my macbookpro, even after using the latest driver for it.
M-Audio forum tech guy says to many other people with same problem.
Buy an usb hub, and plug it in using that, and it will work.

So on my way to buy a usb hub, I stop by the post office and mail off my Axiom25 for repair, as my warranty only has a couple more weeks left. Don't want to miss the warranty. (This was a wrong move here)
So I buy the usb hub, get home plug in the Oxygen8, and it works.
Only problem is the same problem happens with the Oxygen8, with the same presets, and 2 different macs, and all the same vst/au's and Live instruments.

Is this problem on the Apple side or M-Audio?
I don't know now.

Here is an audio example of the problem from one preset, using the demo of NuSofting MicroRock vst.
The first 4 bars are the preset in legato mode, short silence, then the next 4 bars with legato switched off, which is retrigger mode, which is where the problem happens with that plugin. This same result can be produced with 80% of the presets using NuSofting MicroRock.
http://www.megafileupload.com/en/file/2 ... 1-mp3.html

The note cutoff problem, also happens after recording the midi and playing it back.

There's many other vst's and au's and software that this problem happens in.
If anyones interested in that info I can post that info.

I just have hope that someone can help me decide which company I can dump on this.
As If it's an Apple issue, I will return my new Macbook Pro, and buy a Windows machine, and never mention Apple computers again.
If it's an M-Audio problem, I will sell it and buy some other companies midi controller, and never again mention M-Audio ever again.
Why? Because I believe neither one of these companies could fix the problem.
So the only solution would be never to buy the product that this problem was made possible by.
It's not a software problem though.
It's either an Apple problem (firmware maybe), or an M-Audio problem.
It happens on 2 different mac computers, and 2 different M-Audio midi controllers.
Either way this problem sucks for me, and it's bringing me down real bad.
I just can't afford anything to replace my mac or axiom.
My bet is M-Audio will send it back saying they could find nothing wrong with it.
Apple? Their a customer service nightmare. I hope I'm still under 90 days usage, that might help, as I believe it is a flaw with Apple computers.

Thanks for any advice in this matter.
Michael

mcnoone · Post by **mcnoone** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:09 pm

Any help on this matter will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

Just to make it short.
Notes cutoff short of their intended sustain length.
With many different daw's and vst/au and sampled presets.
Happens on 2 different mac computers, and 2 different M-Audio controllers.
Which company is responsible, M-Audio or Apple?

ZenPunkHippy · Post by **ZenPunkHippy** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:58 pm

So you are saying that when you hold down a note, the note enters the release phase before you have let go of the actual key on your MIDI keyboard? Have you tried using MIDI Monitor to see what's happening in the actual MIDI stream? It's free, download it here:

http://www.snoize.com/

At least you can view the raw MIDI data before it reaches your host / synth.

The keyboard that requires a USB hub to work probably isn't getting enough power when hooked up to the USB port on the Mac. If it possible to use batteries, or an external PSU / wall wart, try that.

Peace,
Andy.

mcnoone · Post by **mcnoone** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:22 am

I'm saying on many presets of different vst/au's and Live instruments.
Including Alchemy for one lead preset.
It is only playing staccato, only the attack. 0.5 seconds worth of a sound that should have sustain.
It only happens with legato or retrigger mono modes.
The mp3 sound example I posted, shows this very clearly.

I did many midi monitor tests, and the midi is recorded as normal, but on play back of that sequence the decay and sustain is cutting off on random notes. Not always the same notes.

I should call Apple about this I think.
Thanks for your help Andy.

Lotuzia · Post by **Lotuzia** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:37 am

Maybe you could try to input data (notes) with mouse or on a stave instead of using the keyboard ?

If the same problems occur during playback then its likely its not the keyboard which is faulty.

LtZ

dblue · Post by **dblue** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:47 am

mcnoone wrote:I did many midi monitor tests, and the midi is recorded as normal, but on play back of that sequence the decay and sustain is cutting off on random notes.

If the MIDI is recorded correctly and you experience the problem on playback, then it's obviously got nothing to do with your MIDI controller, since it's the host controlling the plugin at that point and not your keyboard.

Since you mentioned Live, I just did a quick test now in Live 8.1.1, using the NuSofting MicroRock VST demo and the preset "FX inharmonic" (which I think is the same one you used in your MP3 example?). The result I get seems to be exactly the same as what you are experiencing.

When I try the VST in Renoise 2.5, everything seems fine and the notes play correctly even with legato disabled. No problem whatsoever as far as I can tell. (Edit: spoke too soon... see my post below for updated info)

I think you can safely rule out both your MIDI controller and your computer. Seems like it could be Live that's acting a bit weird? It could also just be related to how notes are treated/prioritised by the plugin when legato is disabled.

In any case... it's probably a good idea if you upload an example project/song file that demonstrates the problem. Then other people can test it out for themselves.

mcnoone · Post by **mcnoone** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:26 am

Thanks Lotuzia, and dblue.
I will try to input the notes manually and see if that helps.

This does happen with 3 different daw's though.
Live Lite8.0.10, and 6.0.10, and Garageband5.1, and the Reaper demo latest version.
The most presets it happens on is the NuSofting Microrock demo, with the legato light off, and Live Simpler instruments, as well as a Puremagnetic micro pak called B-Basses and Leads (analog)
The Poly-Ana demo I tried a while back also had many presets with this problem.

How could the problem be with so many different daws and plugins, and not have to do with the computer?
It's not just one daw, and one plugin.
It's on 2 different computers and 2 different controllers, and many different daws, and plugins.
Thanks for your help.
I'm going to try loading up my Windows pc with this software to test soon, and see what happens then.

ZenPunkHippy · Post by **ZenPunkHippy** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:37 am

How did you record the audio file you posted? Was it an export from a MIDI region, or a live audio recording of the synth output?

Does this happen you create a MIDI clip in Live using the mouse, and then use the export function on the file menu?

Peace,
Andy.

someone called simon · Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:00 am

I was having a somewhat similar problem with some presets in ALchemy because my input buffer was set too low. It would just play the first bit of the sound, very staccato. It was fixed when I upped it from 64 samples.

Prob not the same issue, but good luck.

mcnoone · Post by **mcnoone** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:59 am

someone called simon wrote:I was having a somewhat similar problem with some presets in ALchemy because my input buffer was set too low. It would just play the first bit of the sound, very staccato. It was fixed when I upped it from 64 samples.

Prob not the same issue, but good luck.

This might be it. I only tried different latency. I'll check that in a minute.

@ZenPunkHippy:
The recording is from a midi clip, not audio.
If I play the midi clip with one of the buggy presets, it does it on midi playback too.
If I switch to a good preset it does not do it any longer.

Maybe changing the sample rate might work, I'll try that.

Thanks, as this problem I noticed happening a long time ago, but now it's happening with more plugins then before, and find it more annoying that I don't know where the cause is
coming from.

ZenPunkHippy · Post by **ZenPunkHippy** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:05 am

It's very tempting to set the buffer settings really low when setting up a new and powerful system, but it's not that simple. DCAM: Synth Squad plays great at 64 samples with super low latency on a 2009 Mac Pro, but Kontakt pops and clicks below 256 samples. Alchemy as been OK with the lower buffer value, but I've not tried every single preset.

Peace,
Andy.

xybre · Post by **xybre** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:24 pm

It really sounds like your buffer/audio card settings. Are you using the same audio card or setting with both computers?

If so, try playing with the buffer size as mentioned above.

dblue · Post by **dblue** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:29 pm

mcnoone wrote:How could the problem be with so many different daws and plugins, and not have to do with the computer? It's not just one daw, and one plugin.

I just tried it with the Reaper demo myself and I get the same result. I also did some further testing in Renoise and it seems that it does actually happen there as well, so I spoke a bit too soon in my previous post.

So to recap: Ableton Live 8.1.1 (demo), Reaper 3.31 (demo), and Renoise 2.5 (registered) are all showing the same behaviour that you are experiencing. I tried it under ASIO with various buffer sizes as well as DirectSound, and saw no changes.

I am not hearing any pops or clicks or any other typical artifacts that might suggest an incorrect buffer size or something like that, nor is my system being overloaded at any point. The sound coming out of the VSTi itself is perfectly clean and normal apart from the early note-off behaviour. It is identical to the behaviour in the MP3 example that you provided.

The more I play around with it, the more I think this is simply the behaviour of the plugin itself (and probably all the other plugins, too) when legato is disabled. Whether this behaviour is incorrect or not, I can't say for sure, but I really don't think this has anything to do with your system.

Hope this helps.

mcnoone · Post by **mcnoone** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:47 pm

Thanks dblue.
I tried using the plug adapter for the controller, as Andy suggested. Didn't help.
I also tried different sample rate settings in midi set up and Live preferences.
Nothing changed.
I also did different latency settings, also using the driver fault compensation too.
Nothing worked.
I get most of the preset problems with Live instruments though.
Especially in this free pack of leads, it happens a lot.
http://togeostudios.com/downloads/ablet ... live-pack/

There are really a lot of presets and vst/au's that exhibit this behavior, I'm surprised that no one who tested these kinds of software, or hardware ever came across this problem.

mcnoone · Post by **mcnoone** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:22 pm

I found something out about this problem.
It seems to be related to polyphony, as was mentioned before.

I tried out this freeware synth called Symptohm-Melohman Performer Edition
by Ohm Force.
1 of the presets had this note cutoff problem.
It was a mono retriggered patch and the polyphony was set at 1.
I switched it to 2, and still the problem, then I switched it to 3 polyphony, and the problem did not happen anymore, at 3 note polyphony.

Oh well, I guess I'll never figure out why it's happening.

The true story of a product flaw nightmare.