more on time signatures

[wrench45us]

the various discussions of odd time signatures has me tapping some things out.

it seesm it realy doesn't do much to break things down into counts of 4 and whatever 's left over. 7/4 isn't really much in terms of 4 and 3 -- but starts to work in some sequence of 3 3 and 2, similarly 11/8 is just dreadful as 4 4 and 3, but starts to cook as 3 3 3 and 2.

Is there a standard practice for how to break down the 5/4 7/4 11/4 ?

[Ockeghem]

the various discussions of odd time signatures has me tapping some things out.

it seesm it realy doesn't do much to break things down into counts of 4 and whatever 's left over. 7/4 isn't really much in terms of 4 and 3 -- but starts to work in some sequence of 3 3 and 2, similarly 11/8 is just dreadful as 4 4 and 3, but starts to cook as 3 3 3 and 2.

Is there a standard practice for how to break down the 5/4 7/4 11/4 ?

It depends on how the composer wants to place the emphasis. If this is not clear, duple and triple alternations (3+2 or 2+3) can work.
Part of the interest for the listener in these pieces is figuring out where the beat "really" is.
Check out "Missa Prolationum" by J. Ockeghem, which uses canons in multiple time signatures simultaneously.

[Wittenberg]

Hi
I don't really understand the question? Why would you want to break it up? Why not use a 11/8 signature if it is one?

[wrench45us]

ah,
I see your point
I guess to simpllify a bit and define the accents, but I can see where this could be rather limiting. otherwise we would break down 4/4 as 2 2/4 with beats consistently on 1 and 3 or 2 and 4

[Wittenberg]

Allright. Still not sure I am follow you completely but let's try.

Maybe it's all a matter of convenience. For the sequencer it doesn't matter if you use one time signature or a broken up one. It doesn't matter for the music either. You can play the same pattern over a 7/4 measure as over a 4/4 followed by a 3/4. It sounds the same.

The pattern may have a clear accent on 1 and 5, in which case you could 'visualize' this with a 4/4 and 3/4 rather than 7/4. I have done it sometimes. But it also has drawbacks. It makes copying and arranging a lot trickier. If you have an entire passage written in 7/4, you only need to define the time signature of that passage once. If you break everything up, you have a soup of time signature changes in that passage. So instead of this

7/4 - - - - - - - - (8 meaures in 7/4)

you have to manage this in your arrangement

4/4 4/3 4/4 4/3 4/4 4/3 4/4 4/3 4/4 4/3 4/4 4/3 4/4 4/3 4/4 4/3

It gets really uncomfortable if you break up 11/8 into 4 measures... and then have to repeat that as long as the 11/8 is in effect.

[Nystul]

Sometimes we can make assumptions about where the strong beats will be based on a time signature. It makes no difference to the DAW, but to a musician looking at a score for the first time it does affect how they will interpret the beats (until the music proves them wrong at least). One could write in 24/16 or 12/8 with the exact same 24 sixteenth notes, and one will feel like each quarter note has 2 strong subdivisions while the other will feel like it has 3. But pieces in 7 or 11 are so rare and different from one another that I don't think any assumptions are made until the notes are looked at, except that the first beat of the measure is important. Sometimes you get the shifty rhythms where it may be a 2-2-3 pattern in one measure and a 3-2-2 pattern in the next. Or something like the Mission Impossible theme where one of the strongest beats isn't on a beat at all. You just kind of have to go with the flow until you figure out what is going on with this music.

[VicDiesel]

7/4 isn't really much in terms of 4 and 3 -- but starts to work in some sequence of 3 3 and 2, similarly 11/8 is just dreadful as 4 4 and 3, but starts to cook as 3 3 3 and 2.

This is silly. You can't break down a rhythm anyway you want. You have to listen to the melody first. Tomorrow I'll be performing a Yugoslav tune in 11/8 and it's counted 3 2 3 3. Any other way of counting would clash with the melody.

Another tune will be in 10/8, and that's counted 3 2 2 3. Any other count is just wrong. (It's a standard middle eastern rhyhtm, the name of which escapes me at the moment, but the melody clearly implies that count.)

Victor.

[wrench45us]

I haven't made the transition to sequencer
and I'd agree that it would be a mess in a sequencer to break thinsg down to smaller units

I was just working out how to tap it and play various odd time signatures live and in person

[xtp]

I haven't made the transition to sequencer
and I'd agree that it would be a mess in a sequencer to break thinsg down to smaller units

I was just working out how to tap it and play various odd time signatures live and in person

In a sequencer you can mathematically divide down and providing your bpm is correct, finish in the right place.

for example: sub 3/4 and 4/4 for 7/4.

But, when you try to follow the rhythm and beat it wont feel right, just as it wouldn't if you were trying to interpret a piece of written music [score] with a substituted set of time sigs.


I always know when working on my own work in a sequencer; [which is usually cut from a larger improvisation set] If I can count to the end and it doesn't feel like I have just survived a train wreck that I must have worked out the time-sig changes fairly accurately.

[wrench45us]

This is silly. You can't break down a rhythm anyway you want. You have to listen to the melody first. Tomorrow I'll be performing a Yugoslav tune in 11/8 and it's counted 3 2 3 3. Any other way of counting would clash with the melody.

Another tune will be in 10/8, and that's counted 3 2 2 3. Any other count is just wrong. (It's a standard middle eastern rhyhtm, the name of which escapes me at the moment, but the melody clearly implies that count.)

what I was trying to say from the beginning that using a 4 count didn't get me anywhere with real or imnagined music -- it was just awkward -- where breaking into 3's and 2's is much more likely in any real piece of music and more engaging in working out these odd time signatures for an original imagined composition