Sociological Speculation

[Ogg Vorbis]

I was checking out Ableton Live a little bit and thinking about using it to compose some classical music. The session view might be an interesting way to organize material.

This got me thinking about the repetitive nature of music in the late 20th century and today. Much of pop, acid jazz, dance, and post minimalist classical music is built up around little repetitive "clips" or "cells" of ideas that layer and generate sections and whole compositions.

This contrasts from the more linear orientation of exposition of main theme and contrasting theme and then developing the melodic and rhythmic potential and spinning out fully developed sections with a recapitulation of the main ideas.

The "cellular" approach is kind of developmental in nature, but maybe not as "deeply" developmental. By contrast the more classical and linear approach is like the kind of approach to writing that I learned in my school system education. You have a main topic or thesis, and you expand your thesis by breaking it down point by point and discussing all the ramifications until you come back to the re-statement of your original point and sum it up (coda).

You can look at classical music of Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven, etc, in the same way. Bach fugues are set up this way with a subject and developmental episodes that restate at the end with a little coda or summing up at the end.

But cellular music is totally different. Repetitive groove, little repeating ideas, and large blocks made up of smaller blocks, which are in turn made up of smaller blocks, etc. are the order of the day.

This got me thinking about modern urban life. You take the 7:45 train into the city every day. It is a repetivie little cell experience. You look out the window and power poles whizz by you rhythmically in a tempo. You get your coffee at the coffee shop and stand in line, order, wait, pay and walk out the door. You do your routine which could be a job. You get to the office, login, check your e-mail and schedule and have your morning meeting. Etc. etc...

This goes on every day....day after day. There are little variations within each experiential cell but mostly one day blends into the next in a kind of structure that is called "life."

By contrast, if I go backpacking in the mountains, I notice immediately the lack of tightly repetitive cellular experiences. I am now more connected to a larger series of cycles...morning, day, night and seasons, weather, forest versus desert, animal tracks, etc.

What does modern music say to us about modern life? Does it have anything to teach us about our lives? Do these questions mean anything or is such contemplation and rumination NOT part of the repetitive and cellular experience of the 21st century experience?

[Michael Benjamin]

nice observation.

[bmot]

That's a very intersting theory, and it sounds plausible on first reading. I really like your term "cellular" and the comparison you make to modern styles of music organisation.

So following this train of thought, coudl one say that in order to create the conditions for composing less "cellular" music we need to modify our lives so they don't follow such tight predictable patterns? Forgive me if this is a leap too far, but it seems to follow, at least superficially. So naturally, if my last sentence is accepted, this theory could also be interpreted to read that Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn etc had less predictable, less "cellular" lives, which impacted on their musical output.

However, I would think that we could achieve this state too by viewing our lives in a different way: "zoom out", look at the bigger picture, so that the "predictable" small cellular activities are insignificant dots in part of a less predictable whole. This might require some sacrifice in individuality, maybe a sacrifice that we shouldn't seek to make. Conversely, someone hiking in the mountains could "zoom in" on their existence and see each step as a cellular predictable activity. Again, this doesn't seem to be a desirable personal aim. The point is, it's how we view things that creates closed cellular systems in our minds.

Maybe i need to give this idea some more thought, this is just a quick reaction to your very interesting post. Thanks for the thoughts.

[rbarata]

it's how we view things that creates closed cellular systems in our minds

I agree with this. If you were to write about one day of your life, it won't be repetitive becasue you are describing one day only.
But you could also write a song about the monotony of your life but you'd need to span your view through all year.

That's how we want to see things.

[Chester Desmond]

Some interesting thoughts there.
What does modern music say to us about modern life?
I think a lot of modern music is a deliberate attempt to break away from tradition, which could be interpreted as resulting from modern life itself I guess. As a culture becomes more permissive and less rigid it seems natural that the 'rules' of music and art would also follow suit. As a culture begins to compartmentalize and label things to a greater degree, this might also leak into the arts. When you sit gazing at sheep in a meadow and think about Romantic poetry you are going to have a different frame of reference for projecting your thoughts through music than when you sit and look out a traincar window and think about 5 million things that meadow man didn't have to think about.

Does it have anything to teach us about our lives?
Possibly, but I don't know if it does so any more than older music does. While a repetitive piece might call to mind the aspects of modern life you mention, a slow traditional piece, by contrast, might invoke a desire to escape those aspects.


Do these questions mean anything or is such contemplation and rumination NOT part of the repetitive and cellular experience of the 21st century experience?
They mean something because you asked them but I don't know if it's fair to use the relevance of your questions to decide whether we all think about anything any more.

[johnrule]

Very insightful theories...I can definitely see your point. Years ago, it took much more effort to do anything, go anywhere, etc. Today, it is much too easy for people (in general), and I also feel that today's music is a reflection of that: atonal banter that is more like "junk food" music. Is this god or bad?

Personally, I think it is 'not good'. You have young artists (and I use that term loosely) that are not interested in theory or structure, and simply cut-and-paste from existing works to create what they call music. While this may accidentally result is something that is fairly entertaining, it has no substance and is superficial...like their lives. I think we are in a downward spiral of a sort.

However, in defense of experimentation (which I have done my fair share of!), I can only hope that it is part of growth towards something of value. In conclusion, I do not foresee future generations revering the popular music of recent years like (for example) classical music is revered. It was David Byrne of the Talking Heads that recently made this comment:

"Support ongoing creativity in the arts, and not the ongoing glorification and rehashing of the work of those dead guys"

Well, he has a point, but my argument to that would be: create something that deserves glorification and I will support you.

JR

[Musicologo]

I shall make some quotations that seem to be appopriate remarks concerning this topic, they all extracted from the same book.

p. 24

Every composer has a basic cognitive system that sets its stamp on his major works, regardless of the ensembles for which they are written. This cognitive system includes all cerebral activity involved in his motor coordination, feelings, and cultural experiences, as well as his social, intellectual, and musical activities. An accurate and comprehensive description of a composer's cognitive system will, therefore, provide the most fundamental and powerful explanation of the patterns that his music takes. Similarly, the musical styles current in a society will be best understood as expressions of cognitive processes that may be observed to operate in the formation of other structures. When we know how these cognitive processes work in producing the patterns of sound different societies call "music", we shall be in a better position to find out how musical man is.

p. 25

The nature from which man has selected his musical styles is not only external to him; it includes his own nature - his psychophysical capacities and the ways in which these have been structured by his experiences of interaction with people and things, which are part of the adaptive process of maturation in culture. We do not know which of these psychophysical capacities, apart from hearing, are essential for music making, or whether any of them are specific to music. It seems that musical activities are associated with specific parts of the brain, and that these are not the same as language centers. But we shall never know what to look for until we study the creative processes that are present in a learned performance of music, much as they are present in the sentences if a learned language.


p. 30

Functional analysis of musical structure cannot be detached from structural analysis of its social function: the function of tones in relation to each other cannot be explained adequately as part of a closed system without reference to the structures of the sociocultural system of which the musical system is a part, and to the biological system to which all music makers belong.

p. 32

In order to find out what music is and how musical man is, we need to ask who listens and who plays and sings in any given society and why.


p. 104

Music is not a language that describes the way society seems to be, but a metaphorical expression of feelings associated with the way society really is.


BLACKING, John, 1983, How musical is man?, University of Washington press, Seattle and London


That last bit is a key one, concerning your thoughts on the subject. Music replicates life, society.

I hope these insights may help to the discussion...

[Ogg Vorbis]

I hope these insights may help to the discussion...

Those are really hard quotes for me to really grasp, even if I've read them over a few times. I wonder why I find this so tough, it's not like I haven't read challenging books before...

But what I am gathering is that he's saying that there is a relationship between a composer and her/his environment which orients music. This relationship is a feedback cycle that is mutually influential, and spreads out through society and other music within that society.

If what I am getting from this is accurate, then I think it's quite true. There is such a feedback cycle, but it is not completely "closed" to other time periods.

I am heavily influenced by music of other times and other cultures. In fact, so are general audiences as well. Most audiences do not reject music that is outside of their sphere of culture.

(I suppose then, one could argue that the "sphere of one's culture" INCLUDES the other cultures and other time periods!)

But the music that is immediate to our time and culture probably reflects a larger experience of our own society. For example, we can listen to Haydn all day but we are not members of the Esterhazy aristocracy. It is still musically relevant to us, but not as culturally relevant as Deadmau5 or Philip Glass.

(uh oh...I feel like I'm getting out on a limb with that last statement...)

Anyway, thanks to all for taking part in this very fascinating discussion!

Hopefully we can keep it going for a little while longer. It's pretty interesting to think about.

[ozmoz2008]

...If what I am getting from this is accurate, then I think it's quite true. There is such a feedback cycle, but it is not completely "closed" to other time periods.

Life(and the universe) is all about cycles. The repetition is an illusion because everyday, every second we experience a different time and space. The cycle goes more like a spiral IMO.

There is a philosophy that says it is important to explore new grounds, to break the apparent cycles and have a feeling of discovery. I think it helps a lot to feel more accomplish and to a certain extent, happier in life in general. (Sorry for the little philosophical OT)

The cycling aspect musically specified here seems more like a side effect of the tools used. I use to like a lot an old sequencer named "hybrid arts". It was pushing me to think more linear instead of cycles and "blocks", improvising on a theme and developing it as I was playing. I think that I kept that approach in general even using more "cell" type of sequencers (like Cubase). But it's easy to fall into too much repetition when you use loops for example.

Nice thread!

[bmot]

what I am gathering is that he's saying that there is a relationship between a composer and her/his environment which orients music. This relationship is a feedback cycle that is mutually influential...

this reminds me of the discussions about the relationship between the media and society or TV/computer games and violence on society. Some would say the ever increasing violence on TV and in games is a reflection on modern society, and others would take it further and say it causes further violence by normalising it in mainstream culture. But how many TV programmes or computer games stay with you all your life and touch your mind in the same way that an amazing piece of music can? To me, it seems that the power of music to have an influence on the collective consciousness of society is greater than other forms of media. This thought could be extended to say that this feedsback on itself and influences changes in society itself.

Itös late. I'm not sure what i'm saying anymore :lol:

[metamorphosis]

Actually it's more the application of tribal roots to modern instrumentation that creates more rhythmic ie. repetitive structures. THat's where jazz comes from, and from that rock, pop, and everything else modern.
The last ten years music has shifted towards more repetition because the
richer folk who owned computers started pirating music, influencing the charts by their absence from purchase. Hence the growth of "urban" music.

[Ogg Vorbis]

Actually it's more the application of tribal roots to modern instrumentation that creates more rhythmic ie. repetitive structures. THat's where jazz comes from, and from that rock, pop, and everything else modern.
The last ten years music has shifted towards more repetition because the
richer folk who owned computers started pirating music, influencing the charts by their absence from purchase. Hence the growth of "urban" music.

I would agree with the afro-roots of jazz, rock, and so on. Plus you've got a huge increase in awareness of far eastern and Indonesian music too. The big thing that brought this into the realm of classical music, I think, is the "dead end" of serialism.

Many of our most influential Western composers of the late 20th and early 21st century started out as serialists or post-serialists who were being taught to follow the footsteps of Stockhausen, Berio, Babbit, et. al. But somewhere along the line they abandoned it in favor of more "world culture" influenced non-linear music.

I myself tried to write in serial or 12-tone styles - trying to "carry the torch" of that grand lineage passed down to us from Vienna. But then it turned out I was not smart enough to pull it off. Plus, it wasn't what I HEARD in my mind as I walked around.

So I postulate that the reaction against serialism did fuel a surge in more "cellular" or repetitive classical music.

And now, rock, jazz, pop, electronica, world styles and classical music are cozying up in bed together. Serialism is still out there and alive and kicking but it's in bed by itself.

[xtp]

I myself tried to write in serial or 12-tone styles - trying to "carry the torch" of that grand lineage passed down to us from Vienna.

... it wasn't what I HEARD in my mind as I walked around.

I have always felt that focusing on the gifts of self to be the best way to add value to the world.

What you hear inside you is unique to you, sometimes what one wants to be is not what one is.

I always wanted to be a folk singer, but its not what I hear in my head.

Instead my textures are full of shifting time signatures and harmony/jazz chords that I am still learning about to be able to get out whats trapped inside me.

While it is always good to acknowledge the Greats that have gone before you, your own path will lead to the greatness in you.