Thinking about delving into "Theory of Harmony" book by Schoenberg- any thoughts?

[koolkeys]

I've had music theory training for many years while learning piano and then on a college level for multiple years, and have played the piano and written music for over 19 years. I can both read music and play by ear. However, I really feel like there is a roadblock I've been hitting. Ya know, that point where everything starts to sound like everything else?

So I am thinking about getting the book "Theory Of Harmony", the popular book by Schoenberg. But I was wondering if anyone else has read it and would recommend it? I've heard it referred to as a "classic" by a few people, and I think it would offer a different way of thinking when it comes to harmony and counterpoint, compared to the way I do it now.

I think I get stuck into the "modern" way of songwriting, and there are some great textures and ideas brewing that I don't even know about yet. And while I know theory, I am aware that there are many deeper techniques that I never got into. And I think that learning the scientific "reasons" behind these things is fascinating as well. I just don't want to get a book that won't help MY composing, as time is limited these days. I want it to be practical for what I do.

So would anyone recommend this book? I have a 40% off coupon at Borders and I know our Borders has it in stock, so it would be a great time to get it for cheap(retail is like $33 or so?). Would this book be helpful for somebody who writes more modern styled music in pop-like genres and a little bit of film score stuff thrown in? Or should I look elsewhere?

Thanks!

Brent

[Aroused by JarJar]

I've had music theory training for many years while learning piano and then on a college level for multiple years, and have played the piano and written music for over 19 years. I can both read music and play by ear. However, I really feel like there is a roadblock I've been hitting. Ya know, that point where everything starts to sound like everything else?

So I am thinking about getting the book "Theory Of Harmony", the popular book by Schoenberg. But I was wondering if anyone else has read it and would recommend it? I've heard it referred to as a "classic" by a few people, and I think it would offer a different way of thinking when it comes to harmony and counterpoint, compared to the way I do it now.

I think I get stuck into the "modern" way of songwriting, and there are some great textures and ideas brewing that I don't even know about yet. And while I know theory, I am aware that there are many deeper techniques that I never got into. And I think that learning the scientific "reasons" behind these things is fascinating as well. I just don't want to get a book that won't help MY composing, as time is limited these days. I want it to be practical for what I do.

So would anyone recommend this book? I have a 40% off coupon at Borders and I know our Borders has it in stock, so it would be a great time to get it for cheap(retail is like $33 or so?). Would this book be helpful for somebody who writes more modern styled music in pop-like genres and a little bit of film score stuff thrown in? Or should I look elsewhere?

Thanks!

Brent

It's a great book, though Stil und Gedanke is more interesting to me, being
more general/artistic/philosophical. Wacko stuff like Schillinger (if you ignore the pseudo-science) is actually more practically useful for a composing musician in modern times, humorously enough (IMO of course).

But it may be that you're actually hearing the great stinking "emporer has no clothes/illusion of freedom" problem of our time, 12-tET. In which case you need to back 300 years and far left of center for books (Tartini, Huygens, Partch, Mandelbaum).

[koolkeys]

LOL, I'll just buy them all.

[herodotus]

The Theory of Harmony is great but kind of remote and...theoretical.

For practical instruction written by the master, for someone who has the basics down, I think the best book is Fundamentals of Musical Composition.

A truly great book.

[Music Engineer]

I am aware that there are many deeper techniques that I never got into. And I think that learning the scientific "reasons" behind these things is fascinating as well.

http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~sethares/consemi.html

the new grand unifying theory of harmony. dunno how practical this stuff is for your composing, though. hey, aroused by jarjar, i'm surprised you didn't mention this.

edit: the article in the link above is merely a short summary, the full-on book would be this:

http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~sethares/ttss.html

reading it was truly a revealation for me (thx again for the tip aroused by jarjar).

edit2: just as an even shorter summary of what all this stuff is about:

The key idea is that consonance and dissonance are not inherent qualities of intervals, but are dependent on the spectrum, timbre, or tonal quality of the sound. [...] In fact, almost any interval can be made dissonant or consonant by proper sculpting of the timbre.

[flugel45]

...

I think I get stuck into the "modern" way of songwriting, and there are some great textures and ideas brewing that I don't even know about yet. And while I know theory, I am aware that there are many deeper techniques that I never got into...

I think the crux of your question is stated in the segment above.

Arranging/orchestration builds on music theory, so if you haven't done any significant study of the former, then you will likely not progress to the "deeper techniques".

As far as the "great textures", you just need to expand your harmonic palette through ear-training... Studying jazz harmony and works by twentieth century composers will take you farther than absorbing yet another music theory book, like Schoenberg's. (Not saying you shouldn't get the book - especially if it's cheap... Just that IMO it won't help much with what you need).

As to the studies on arranging/orchestration, you could do worse than the recommendations at Garritan's GPO site (Rimsky/Korsakov, etc). For a slightly less classical-oriented approach, these books are the best, IMO:

-- Arranging Techniques for Synthesists by Eric Turkel

-- Acoustic and Midi Orchestration for the Contemporary Composer by Pejrolo and DeRosa.

-- The Guide to Midi Orchestration by Paul Gilreath

(The first two are especially useful in ear-training, as they include a CD/DVD with audio examples).

Good luck,
JD

[zappadave]

A couple of other books you might try, worth checking out.
Vincent Persichetti - Twentieth Century Harmony.
This is more of a quick run through almost everything your might use harmony wise, from triadic to quartal and secundal. Compound, polychord, polytonality and more.
Ludmila Ulehla - Contemporary Harmony.
A lot of theory and history, covers most of the ground above, but explains how this works in a deeper way.

Theory of Harmony does go into how Harmony works in a deeper way, but does take a lot of reading time. If you don't have the time to give this book, these two are an easier, and more enjoyable read (my opinion only of course).

[koolkeys]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I'll likely get into multiple sources that have been suggested.

As I mentioned above, I do have music theory training, including up to college level, along with some self training. But I know there are many different "methods" out there, and I know that the level of harmony training I have received isn't close to giving the whole picture. So my hope is that I can find some sources that provide me new ways of thinking.

Also, I do have a certain level of understanding of orchestration and instrumentation, though that could also obviously always improve. For what I do, which is a mix of modern "band" instruments with orchestral arrangements, my current knowledge is fairly sufficient. But as mentioned, I want to get into a new degree of work, busting out of the rinse and repeat workflow of some modern music.

Truth be told, it's been a while since I was in any formal training for music theory, and being that I live in Nashville and write music literally every day in a style that doesn't typically use advanced harmony techniques, I wanted to expand on things. It took me a while to admit to myself that I needed more training, because for the most part, I feel like the music I create is exactly what I wanted it to be, and people seem to respond.

So this is a pride moment for me, making the acknowledgement that I really don't know all that I need nor want to know. The reason I brought up this book is because I was looking at it in the store the other day, and even in the limited reading of a few pages, I found myself saying "huh! That's really interesting to think of it that way" and I realized that it's time to take everything further.

So enough rambling from me. I've got some research and reading to do! More suggestions are obviously welcome for more advanced theory courses/books/resources. I may never get to them all, but here goes!

Brent

[koolkeys]

...

I think I get stuck into the "modern" way of songwriting, and there are some great textures and ideas brewing that I don't even know about yet. And while I know theory, I am aware that there are many deeper techniques that I never got into...

I think the crux of your question is stated in the segment above.

Arranging/orchestration builds on music theory, so if you haven't done any significant study of the former, then you will likely not progress to the "deeper techniques".

As far as the "great textures", you just need to expand your harmonic palette through ear-training... Studying jazz harmony and works by twentieth century composers will take you farther than absorbing yet another music theory book, like Schoenberg's. (Not saying you shouldn't get the book - especially if it's cheap... Just that IMO it won't help much with what you need).

As to the studies on arranging/orchestration, you could do worse than the recommendations at Garritan's GPO site (Rimsky/Korsakov, etc). For a slightly less classical-oriented approach, these books are the best, IMO:

-- Arranging Techniques for Synthesists by Eric Turkel

-- Acoustic and Midi Orchestration for the Contemporary Composer by Pejrolo and DeRosa.

-- The Guide to Midi Orchestration by Paul Gilreath

(The first two are especially useful in ear-training, as they include a CD/DVD with audio examples).

Good luck,
JD

Just wanted to comment on this post specifically. I do think that I could always use more instrumentation practice. Just so you know, I do have the second and third books you mentioned(well, I've read them- libraries are great!), and I own books like "Hearing and Writing Music" by Ron Gorow, and others. I do play mostly by ear, including any transcribing and "figuring out" songs and instrument parts. I actually learned originally to play by sight reading, but over the years self-trained myself in ear training.

I have a feeling that this newfound interest in deeper subjects will help me in this area though. Again, I don't want to settle for what I've done and get bored in the end. I would love to write outside my own box a little more.

Maybe I should go back and read some of those books as a refresher. Good books always do reveal more info the second time around, it seems.

Brent

[seacouch]

I read that book years ago, and don't remember much about it. But I do recall that I really liked "Structural Functions of Harmony", also by Schoenberg. I found many of his harmonic concepts to be surprisingly modern and quite relevant in contemporary contexts.

[peppy197]

[elucidation]

I'm reading it at the moment and really enjoying it actually. Schoenberg has a very thorough way of explaining things and it starts from the very basics (voice leading etc.) He also occasionally goes of on tangents about art, dissonance etc. which are quite entertaining as well.

Orchestration by Samuel Adler is another great book to check out.

[jancivil]

To be honest, I found the 2 harmony teachers I had and the courses I got in their class to be far far more PRACTICALLy useful than any of Arnold S's books, which are... kind of high-concept and lofty. You have to have had that harmony course in some form to really get what he's trying to say in that (and 'Structural Functions of Harmony' which I guess should be taken together really; now I was able to handle writing the 'Form and Analysis' paper I was allowed as an undergrad, after working with that book... so I highly recommend it). For your basic toolset... well I'm guessing Schonberg's harmony class was the thing more than the book (which serves as I guess an overview of his thought there).

That Perscichetti 20th c book I remember well, lotta the things which were new tricks in 20th c harmonic vocab are catalogued in there nicely.

"I think it would offer a different way of thinking when it comes to harmony and counterpoint, compared to the way I do it now."... well it's a very structural way of thinking, it'll be different in all likelihood; I don't know if it's the book for someone kind of new to 'tried and true' harmony techniques such as a part-writing oriented course can provide, which is going to save time compared with looking over some books on one's own for most people.

[jpiscitello]

Avoid Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony like the plague. No one studies it anymore. It's a historical curiosity. There's all kind of 2nd-Viennese-School philosophical flaming in the first 3 chapters before he gets to the first discussion of harmony. LAter in he goes on and on and on about how the fully diminished 7th chord has been abused as a means of modulation.

Waste of time.

The book you want is Aldwell and Schacter's "Harmony and Voice Leading". It's awesome. Modern textbook, used at major US conservatories, plenty of exercises, real-world music examples, completely applicable to contemporary songwriting.

I've had music theory training for many years while learning piano and then on a college level for multiple years, and have played the piano and written music for over 19 years. I can both read music and play by ear. However, I really feel like there is a roadblock I've been hitting. Ya know, that point where everything starts to sound like everything else?

So I am thinking about getting the book "Theory Of Harmony", the popular book by Schoenberg. But I was wondering if anyone else has read it and would recommend it? I've heard it referred to as a "classic" by a few people, and I think it would offer a different way of thinking when it comes to harmony and counterpoint, compared to the way I do it now.

I think I get stuck into the "modern" way of songwriting, and there are some great textures and ideas brewing that I don't even know about yet. And while I know theory, I am aware that there are many deeper techniques that I never got into. And I think that learning the scientific "reasons" behind these things is fascinating as well. I just don't want to get a book that won't help MY composing, as time is limited these days. I want it to be practical for what I do.

So would anyone recommend this book? I have a 40% off coupon at Borders and I know our Borders has it in stock, so it would be a great time to get it for cheap(retail is like $33 or so?). Would this book be helpful for somebody who writes more modern styled music in pop-like genres and a little bit of film score stuff thrown in? Or should I look elsewhere?

Thanks!

Brent

[Km7]

Lots of good, but also some inadequate posts on here, especially the one before my post.

First of all, if you are interested in pop-like music writing, songwriting, etc., then you may find classical harmony texts not that suitable, though you still can benefit from them. If this is what interests you and you don't want to go into much theoretical elaboration, then I would suggest checking 'The Chord Scale Theory and Jazz Harmony' by Barrie Nettles and Richard Graf. The contents are quite similar to the 4-part harmony course in Berklee (the same author - B. Nettles), which you can check here for free: http://davidvaldez.blogspot.com/2006/04 ... y-1-4.html

The books by Ludmila Ulehla and Vincent Persichetti are great, but they are about contemporary compositional techniques like polytonality and polymodality, clusters, quartal and quintal harmony, free atonality and so on, most of which are not very applicable to traditional pop and rock music, which I suppose you are more interested in?

I think all the books by Arnold Schoenberg are great and the fact that one has been unable to get something from them doesn't make them bad and a waste of time. This is the way Schoenberg taught his students. And his students include Alban Berg, Anton Webern, John Cage, to name a few. Those books are written by one of the most important 20th century composers; I repeat - by a composer, not just the next theory professor, who easily falls into over-intellectualizing and over-elaborating the matter, ending in teaching you to memorize 'formulas', some of which unessential details, without helping you to form better compositional thinking and understanding of the essential technical principles, which is in the end the most important thing for a composer. Schoenberg's approach is different - far from stiff and dull, more compositional, provocative and intelligent; he makes you think, and not just think, but think more compositionally, so one could greatly benefit from his textbooks. These books have nothing to do with dodecaphony (i.e. the 12-tone method). They are about the classical tonal music from the common practice period... and to the end of the 19th/beginning of 20th century. But bear in mind that there is a lot of text in Theory Of Harmony - sometimes Schoenberg gets overly philosophical, though I find his writing interesting and if you want to dedicate some time, you might find it interesting and useful.

The 600+ pages book called 'Harmony and Voice Leading' is a typical big american book on classical harmony that is fully elaborated with details and dissections, some of which more burdening than essential, but is a good one and the material seems well organized, though I don't like the approach very much. I think the combination of this book with Schoenberg is the best choice.

As for the 'scientific' reasons - Schoenberg gets into more details here compared to the usual harmony textbooks, but not all of his explanations are correct. Despite this, his writings could make one think about those things, to awaken their attention, so to speak, which makes them something good. But for the scientific side of things (how music works, that is) you should read some texts on musical acoustics and psychoacoustics, especially Helmholtz. Sethares's book is very nice, it is about tunings and temperaments, timbre, spectrum, scales, consonance and dissonance and how they are related - a very good reading (perhaps after Helmholtz first) if you are interested in this matter.