Is it possible to explain why bad progressions are bad?

[neueliteratur]

Hello folks,

there are chord progression that don't work.

Let's say we've got the 7 diatonic chords of the C maj key.

Various combinations are possible.

Some sound good, some just sound plain bad.

Is it possible to explain why???

For example,

I - iii - vi - IV sounds good and stable.

I - iii - vi - ii V sounds bad. There's something wrong.

It's the "vi- ii V" part that sounds weird. Yet I'm walking down the circle of fifths (which kind of means it should sound good, at least to newbies like me).

Is it possible to explain why some chord progressions don't work??

[jopy]

I don't know about that conclusion you're drawing, the old "iii-vi-ii-V" is one of the most common, musically conservative, functional chord progressions ever written, and that core "vi-ii-V-I" is even more common.

[cryophonik]

I don't know about that conclusion you're drawing, the old "iii-vi-ii-V" is one of the most common, musically conservative, functional chord progressions ever written, and that core "vi-ii-V-I" is even more common.

Agreed. As far as a chord progression sound "good" vs. "bad", well, that's a subjective issue and is mostly associated with what the listener is accustomed to hearing, or expecting to hear. As always with music theory, it's also largely a matter of context.

[muggeman]

I think, what you're hearing as "bad" or "wrong", is when the tones of a chord create a tension (dissharmonics relative to a chord before, or the root key) which doesn't release in further context. Don't know, what you exactly mean with "vi- ii V" -> "4-2-5" or "4-7"?

[neueliteratur]

LOL I'm PWNED. OK thanks guys I learned something new.

I think, what you're hearing as "bad" or "wrong", is when the tones of a chord create a tension (dissharmonics relative to a chord before or the root key) which doesn't release in further context. Don't know, what you exactly mean with "vi- ii V" -> "4-2-5" or "4-7"?

Maybe you're not familiar with Roman numerals:

vi is 6
ii is 2
V is 5

[mauseoleum]

Bad progressions are bad because bed progressions are good.

That simple.

[xtp]

It may simply be your listening exposure.

My ears cannot make any combination of the source material you describe sound bad.

My three favourite and most used chords, are 7b5, 13 & ø7


Heres a fav riff structure I use a lot. How does this sound to your ears?

Bb13, Ab7b5, Aø7, Bb13,
Dbø7, Bb13, Aø7, Bb13


Not sure why but I always associate I,iii to "Ground control to Major Tom"

[hunkypunk]

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this flow chart is a pretty good general rule of thumb:

http://chordmaps.com/images/map1.gif (http://chordmaps.com/images/map1.gif)

as for what makes certain chord progressions sound "good" or "bad", it has to do with a couple of very important things:

1. circle of fifths, as you pointed out. due to the nature of sound (harmonics), certain notes compliment certain other notes. for example, a 'C' to an 'F#' on the piano = usually sounds very uncomfortable to people.

2. VOICE LEADING

this is what separates the men from the boys. you need to think of chords as a combination of voices. three notes = three voices. if i place CEG, FAC, GED, CEG. this is I -> IV -> V -> I. a pleasant chord progression, no? for some reason, it doesn't sound right. this is because all three voices are moving in PARALLEL MOTION, and it is a bit uncomfortable.

let's try it again: CEG, CFA, DGB, EGC. these are the same chords, but they are in different inversions. what this does is it lets you move the voices in different directions. some voices can even stay still. these are some general rules of what "sounds good" classically (that are definitely made to be broken on occasion):

-- voices that move in different directions are favorable to those that move in the same direction.

-- voices that move in the same direction should NOT be a fifth or an octave from each other (usually). CEG -> FAC = B.A.D. (the TOP voice (melody) and BOTTOM voice (bass) should NEVER break this rule without a good reason).

these are some general rules to follow that will keep you from going too far astray.







p.s. - i'm new here. and i'll probably be posting on this sub-forum a lot.

[psenior]

iii and vi are often substituted for I, so a progression with those 3 chords in a row is really no progression at all from my perspective.

Didn't read all of the post above this one but yes, chord voicings are very important.

If you start thinking in just tonic (major & minor) and dominant, that will take you a long ways towards coming up with good sounding and creative chord changes. Dominant chords create movement in music.

[Aroused by JarJar]

You are hearing a comma depression: syntonic comma. vi-ii-V-I is "the" classic example of why temperament came to be widespread. Understanding the syntonic comma is basic knowledge for Western music- since you can hear it (excellent!) you should study up on it. Start with Hindemith I guess? mainstream and straightforward.

[bpgeez]

You are hearing a comma depression: syntonic comma. vi-ii-V-I is "the" classic example of why temperament came to be widespread. Understanding the syntonic comma is basic knowledge for Western music- since you can hear it (excellent!) you should study up on it. Start with Hindemith I guess? mainstream and straightforward.

Definitely would like to learn more about this syntonic comma, seems like you have a VERY deep understanding of music theory... Listened to a Hindemith arrangement... and I am certain there is a lot of theory and reasoning behind the arrangement, and I'm sure I may be a little closed minded (or narrow earred) but that sounded like ordered chaos I couldnt listen to that for much longer

[Rock]

You are hearing a comma depression: syntonic comma. vi-ii-V-I is "the" classic example of why temperament came to be widespread. Understanding the syntonic comma is basic knowledge for Western music- since you can hear it (excellent!) you should study up on it. Start with Hindemith I guess? mainstream and straightforward.

Definitely would like to learn more about this syntonic comma, seems like you have a VERY deep understanding of music theory... Listened to a Hindemith arrangement... and I am certain there is a lot of theory and reasoning behind the arrangement, and I'm sure I may be a little closed minded (or narrow earred) but that sounded like ordered chaos I couldnt listen to that for much longer

I wouldn't recommend starting with Hindemith, neither with his theory or his music. I am not saying they are bad, but that's not where I would build my foundation.

[skipscada]

Don't know, what you exactly mean with "vi- ii V" -> "4-2-5" or "4-7"?

Maybe you're not familiar with Roman numerals:

vi is 6
ii is 2
V is 5

What he means is do you mean "vi - ii - V" or "vi - iiV"? Surely you mean "vi - ii - V", but you left out a dash.

[Km7]

First of all, there are no objectively bad chord progressions! Those that you have pointed out are fine. Perhaps, either they don't suit your taste, which is also related to your experience (and vi-ii-V-I is sooo typical!) or you have some voicing and voice-leading issues. The syntonic comma (the difference between just major third and Pythagorean major third (ditone)) is a bit out of place here, since this is a general talk on chord progressions, not on (chordal) specifics in different tunings - 12-TET assumed. The effect of root motion and voice leading is what you should focus on. There's no need to spice things up with tuning and temperament here. Hindemith's theoretical threatise is generally a good one, but definitely not the source from which to study tuning and temperament - it is above all about his system for analysis and composition. Also, there are some questionable points there. If you are interested in those things, it's better to first focus on writings on musical acoustics and psychoacoustics.

Now, things are good or bad only if they succeed or fail in executing certain function you want (consequently, in certain styles of music). For example, if you want a powerful, stable cadence, going with vii-iii-ii-I wouldn't work well and from a classical point of view, it's even faulty. But there is a jazz piece that cadences using V-IV-iii-ii-I - in modern music, almost anything is allowed, and in modal harmony the so-called modal cadences are something typical.

And hell, of course iii-vi is a progression!

[robogone]

there are chord progression that don't work.

I disagree - I think all combinations of chords are possible and they all work. It's just that some sound more conventional than others.