Scales again - Modes, this time :)

[tapper mike]

Your statement makes no sense. Scales are based on intervals as are chords. Had you studied scales you have more then one scale to operate with (the chromatic scale) and you would have a more rounded skillset knowing as opposed to hit or miss guesses as to what workes with what where.

[jancivil]

...
xtp's interpretation of the 5 scale shapes presented above precisely assumes that the first note of each scale shape presented is the root of that "scale". That assumption places each root on the 6th string. Hence, first shape is C ionian, second is D dorian, third is E phrygian, etc. I'm only pointing out that that interpretation only holds if you're treating the first note of each scale shape as the root (in addition to whatever additional roots occur in each shape), as xtp did. If you don't make any such assumption, then the 5 scale shapes presented are simply 5 CAGED positions of C major.... nothing to do with modes... C major, that's it.

IE: Any note you find in any position, on any string, on the instrument *is* the tonic, if and when you decide to use that note as tonic note, in any application of any thing which is 'tonal' ie., has a tonic note. 'What string?' is coincidental.

Tonics don't exist in a vacuum, but exist only in relation to other things... in the context of scales/keys/modes the other things are major 3rds and flat 5ths and sharp 9ths and whatever. I don't fully understand your last statement, but it sounds like you're saying "anything can be a tonic at any time in any context", which to me is nonsensical.

that's in your mind and not in anything I typed. Here's the crux of it: Tonics exist 'in relation to other things' in modulating, harmonic usage. This is NOT THE CASE with modes. The tonic is GOD in modes. The "mode" is a set of tones which refers to a tonic, PERIOD. The tonic doesn't relate to any other tonic, that would be a new tonic, ie., you have modulated, moved to.

For example, if somebody says to me: play a riff over a G7 using the first scale shape presented, and now use the same scale shape to play a riff over Am7... then you very well need to be aware of the tonic. In the one case I may want to revolve around major 3rd and b7 and resolve to 1 of G major, and in the second case I may want to focus on minor 3rd and b7 of A minor and resolve to 1 of A minor. So how is understanding which specific string/fret combinations are my "tonic" in any given tonal context irrelevant?

I can't imagine how whst I said is somehow unclear to you unless english is a second language here. Tonic is everything in modal usage. You're using a lot of language to describe very simple concepts, which do not appear to be clear to you really at all. Listen to me: "over Am7"; is the tonic A? Then do a mode with the tonic A, such as aeolian or dorian. If your ARRIVAL POINT is C, your mode IS C. IE: IF you are going to resolve to [...] with these harmonies, then your mode is [...]. &, that's running and you haven't learned to crawl yet.

The only point in the 'irrelevancy of a guitar' is you must get away from that and understand it conceptually as if a guitar is unavailable to you. A guitar position is an application of a concept such as a scale or mode. It is not the concept. You need to have it conceptually and get the guitar out of your mind, that much is clear to me.

'It's the tonic when it's the tonic is what I said', it's right there. Any Note = Tonic when it's *used as*.

That is to say:

The other six modes of the same set of 7 tones are NOT "positions of C major" except in the case of C Ionian.
(A scale isn't a chord. There ARE no positions of a scale. If the tonic is C, it has no relevance what note starts your run.) That's coincidental. Conceptually, C anything is not the same thing as D anything, because they have their own tonics. C major is C major. The tonic there is C. The tonic for D *anything*, dorian, anything, is D. It's incredibly simple.

Again:
C major isn't king of the white keys when you get to modes. D dorian uses the same 7 notes, but, BECAUSE THE TONIC IS D, it's not "C ANYTHING". F Lydian is NOT C major, because the TONIC = F.

If you are proceding under the idea of 'resolves to', you're doing (diatonic or chromatic) HARMONIC usage.
There are ways to do 'D Dorian' and a chord change, but the 'resolution' there is going to D. Period. End of story, or it's some other thing.

You need to heed my advice, learn this conceptually and not as string positions as a basis. That's one thing confusing you. "if you're [NOT] treating the first note of each scale shape as the root", you're not looking at a mode at all.

[xtp]

Your statement makes no sense.

Hi mike, how so. It was purely a statement about a musical period I went thru.

I guess I was putting one interpretation of how I hear sound into perspective in my own way. [that was nearly 20 years ago]

I was going through a very experimental period in my playing, on one hand I was playing and singing Irish and American Folk music, and with a different group of people I was playing very discordent Jazz.

The last few years I have been delving into and developing a Jazz/Folk rhythm style that I am comfortable with and that compliments my lead playing.

Shaun.


@jancivil, I enjoy reading your posts, they are always interesting.

[kbaccki]

The only point in the 'irrelevancy of a guitar' is you must get away from that and understand it conceptually as if a guitar is unavailable to you. A guitar position is an application of a concept such as a scale or mode. It is not the concept. You need to have it conceptually and get the guitar out of your mind, that much is clear to me.

I understand modes. I'm a piano player first and a guitar hack second. But thanks for talking down to me anyway. Much appreciated.

You seem to have a perception that I think that modes are equivalent to "scale positions on a guitar fretboard". I said no such thing and I have no such perception.

I simply said that the scale name you wish to assign to a particular collection of notes depends on what you consider the root of the scale to be.

Specifically, rbarata presented 5 distinct collections of notes on a guitar fretboard. xtp interpreted those 5 collections as 5 modes of C major, to which I said xtp's interpretation only holds if you make assumptions about the root note of each of the 5 collections.

[rbarata]

This topic went a litle overboard...which makes it difficult to follow.

As far as I understood, in a major scale (Ionian), the intervals sequence WWHWWWH are always the same, starting in and regardless of the root note.

Thanks

[xtp]

Hello my friends

I have a doubt about what are scale modes, i.e., in a practical way I know what this is but I can't find a theoretical definition for it.

Thanks

If you are still struggling with this this page might help.

It has a fairly simple explanation


http://mugglinw.ipower.com/chordmaps/part10.htm