Formula for finding relative keys for modes?

[aquar]

Hi all,

I've often read that each mode has a relative key but never really understood how the system works. Most articles I've read just say something like "you should know that the relative key of E phrygian is C major"
I understand for example that each major key has a relative minor and to find it you just count up six notes. C Major > A minor.

Is there a similar formula for modes and if so what is it?

Thanks in advance.

[gravehill]

Exactly the same formula, just different numbers and different names.

These are the C major modes, to work them out in other scales, just transpose them.

C Ionian (same as major)
D Dorian (i.e. the base major scale +2 semitones or the 2nd degree of the scale as base)
E Phrygian (ditto, 3rd of major scale as Phrygian root)
F Lydian (as above)
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian (same as natural minor scale)
B Locrian

[aquar]

Exactly the same formula, just different numbers and different names.

These are the C major modes, to work them out in other scales, just transpose them.

C Ionian (same as major)
D Dorian (i.e. the base major scale +2 semitones or the 2nd degree of the scale as base)
E Phrygian (ditto, 3rd of major scale as Phrygian root)
F Lydian (as above)
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian (same as natural minor scale)
B Locrian

Thanks for the explanation gravehill but its as clear as mud. Not your fault man.
I am not so worried about transposition at this stage just looking for a unified formula if such a thing exists.

Perhaps if I show an example of my thinking it'll be clearer where I am going wrong.?

C Major up six Aminor.
D Major up six B minor
and so on.
its always going up six.


The modes below obviously don't work like that but all have relatives.
If I count up 6 from E phrygian I get C major if however I count up six from D dorian I get B major? but according to other sources I've read C major is the relative of D dorian. It just doesn't make much sense to me at this point.

C Ionian=
D Dorian= C Major?
E Phrygian= C major?
F Lydian=
G mixolydian=
A Aeolian=
B Locrian=

"There are various ways to create chord progressions that support the mode. One common method is to create a two chord vamp (wiki link) using the four and five chords of the relative major (Ionian) key over the root of the mode. So for example, to create a D Dorian chord progression, first we look at it's relative major scale (C major) and take the IV and V chords from that. "

Its the above statement that started the confusion. In isolation I totally understand it but I want to apply that theory to all modes.

[geroyannis]

C Ionian=
D Dorian= C Major?
E Phrygian= C major?
F Lydian=
G mixolydian=
A Aeolian=
B Locrian=

You are in the right path.

C Ionian= C Major
D Dorian= C Major
E Phrygian= C Major
F Lydian= C Major
G mixolydian= C Major
A Aeolian= C Major
B Locrian= C Major



Just transpose that list to any tonic you want. For example:

D Ionian= D Major
E Dorian= D Major
F# Phrygian= D Major
G Lydian= D Major
A mixolydian= D Major
B Aeolian= D Major
C# Locrian= D Major

"There are various ways to create chord progressions that support the mode. One common method is to create a two chord vamp (wiki link) using the four and five chords of the relative major (Ionian) key over the root of the mode. So for example, to create a D Dorian chord progression, first we look at it's relative major scale (C major) and take the IV and V chords from that."

This is plain wrong. Every mode has different chord progressions that support it's tonality. They don't use just the IV and V chords, and certainly not the IV and V chords of their relative major.

For instance, a traditional vamp for Dorian is Im-IIm, so in D Dorian that would be Dm-Em. This has nothing to do with IV and V of D Dorian or it's relative major (C major).

[sammy24]

Well, i wouldn't say that's totally wrong. The IV and V chords in the modes of major alternate between the character note of the mode, so like F and G over D Dorian will definitely provide the desired effect (alternating from the F chord which contains the note F which makes the mode sound minor, to the G chord, which contains B, the 6/13 of the mode, which is the main character note of Dorian). And the strong major chord shapes could be considered the most basic or definitive progressions of these modes.

Any other vamps or progressions are basically doing the same thing, though, alternating from the mode's charcter note (which is more of an "active" sound) to a chord that does not contain that note (and preferably contains the other important note(s) of the mode).

[machinaesound]

As for chords to use with a mode, a good place to start is the diatonic chord structure it's already got. When making a chord progression for a major scale, you might experiment with the I, ii, iii, IV, V, iv and vii- chords. If you actually look at the notes in those chords, you'll find that they make use of the scale position and the notes 2 and 4 scale positions away from it (for example a IV chord is the 4th note in the scale, followed by the 6th and 8th notes in the scale). So take your modal scale and do the same thing: pick a note in the scale, add notes 2 and 4 scale positions away from it, and see if it works. Some won't work at all, some will seem to pull the tonality away from your root, so don't use those.

Thing is, there are no solid rules when pairing chords with modes, because the entire idea of a chord progression developed during a period when Major and Minor modes were essentially the only modes used (the classical period).

Sams idea might be a good place to start, but don't neglect the root of the mode, or you'll lose your tonal center.

[aquar]

You are in the right path.

C Ionian= C Major
D Dorian= C Major
E Phrygian= C Major
F Lydian= C Major
G mixolydian= C Major
A Aeolian= C Major
B Locrian= C Major

Just transpose that list to any tonic you want. For example:

D Ionian= D Major
E Dorian= D Major
F# Phrygian= D Major
G Lydian= D Major
A mixolydian= D Major
B Aeolian= D Major
C# Locrian= D Major

Thanks for the simple explanation the fog has cleared.

[sammy24]

just to clarify, i was talking about using those chords above the root, specifically. Meaning, alternating between F/D and G/D in D Dorian. You can also, as others are suggesting, move the bass note along with the chord changes, but then you have to be much more careful to maintain the root as the tonality.

[PurpleCatfishBettie]

This might help. It's a memory device for the 'ordering' of the modes:

I Don't Phone Lydia Much Anymore, Louise

[amistry]

However modes aren't really supposed to represent a proper major/minor tonality so therefore how can you want a relative minor of a mode? Isn't it just the same as a major relative minor e.g. D dorian would have a relative of B minor?

[aquar]

However modes aren't really supposed to represent a proper major/minor tonality so therefore how can you want a relative minor of a mode? Isn't it just the same as a major relative minor e.g. D dorian would have a relative of B minor?

Yeah that's exactly what I thought until I started reading articles about the various relative keys of modes. Curiosity got the better of me.
All I am trying to do is fill in the holes that exist in my knowledge but as quick as they get filled another opens up.

Unlike most music theory Modes seem to be open to individual interpretation which isn't ideal when you are in the learning phase.
You've only got to trawl through the many threads here on KVR to see just how many contradictions exist on the subject.
And obviously there's some very strong players here and if they can't agree its fair to say there's isn't a definitive answer as such.

[Nystul]

Well, you are making things more complicated than they ought to be. A isn't the relative minor of C major because it is a sixth higher or a third lower. The reason is that they are both modes of the same scale. C major and A minor share the same seven tones. The only difference between them is harmonic context. Which dorian mode has those 7 tones? D. Which phrygian mode has those 7 tones? E. And so on. So if you actually consider it useful to know the names of the modes (I think it is far more useful to know what they sound like than to know these funny names, but for theory discussion sometimes the names come up), then it's just a matter of memorizing the order.

[xtp]

Did you read this?

http://mugglinw.ipower.com/chordmaps/part10.htm


I posted a link to it the other day in another mode thread.

It explains it from a more historical perspective.

Sometimes looking at modes from the perspective of a historical time frame helps settle them in, rather than as a after the fact [present day] introduction to them.

[tapper mike]

People get too tripped out by modes.
Only three points of concern.
Listen, Practice, Apply.
And I know this may seen like sacrilidge to some,,, learn some covers.
A lot of people play in Dorian mode. Not everyone sounds the same when they do.

[aquar]

Yep appreciated.
Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. There's more than enough good advice and info for me to be getting on with.
Its time to back off with the theory and have some good fun actually making music with this new stuff
Cheers.