Trying to figure out these chords...

[MOK19]

Hello,

I've been doing a lil chord progression analysis to figure out which chord combos tend to evoke what feel, the cause/effect of inversions, and it's not going so well! Besides not quite seeing the pattern, I run into times like this where I can't even figure out the chords.

So my questions are in two parts:

1) This example goes back and forth between two chords in the pad, and I'd like to figure out precisely what notes are being played, which notes are inverted, and where about the doublings are.

2) What is the logic of those inversions and doublings? Is there a pattern or tendency such that if I'm trying to build a chord progression with many voices, I should consider inverting or re-voicing certain chord degrees/intervals? Or is it just monkey around with it till it sounds nice? Because I've been doing a lot note-moving, and it seems like there's gotta be a better way to intuit where I'm going.

Thanks all!

[hibidy]

It's in c minor, that much I can tell pretty much for sure. If you get a pad sound and play c minor triad then take off the c and play d that starts to get the correct vibe. There is an f, Bb and c that are playing in the lower register that are shaping the sound of the cord (not the bass part) Couldn't tell you exactly what to call those chords, but it all makes sense tonally when you use c minor as your outline.

[MOK19]

That's the chord I've been messing with, but I can't get the voicing right. I set up my C minor, stack up the intervals - 3rd 5th 7th 9th, and start inverting, but I've yet to accomplish whats happening in that example. It's the voicing that I'm concerned with, which inversions, which voices might be doubled, which ones might be skipped.

And that's just question #1... >< If someone could try this out with me, I'd really appreciate it.

[SWTrex]

Here's what I hear -

The bass notes are F and C, back to F

The chords are first an A flat major seventh (Ab C Eb G), followed by an E flat major 7, inverted to Bb, D, Eb, G.

SWTrex

[MOK19]

Wow, I think you nailed it there. My ears don't fool me too often, and this sounds just about spot on. I added an extra set of C & F at another lower register for a little extra body, and but otherwise it's exactly as you describe.

So... How did you figure that out? Whats your listening process to find those? Or is there a logic you followed?

And another question comes to mind... why is it the C & F got the nod for bass notes in the pad? I mean, of course it sounds right, but is there a reason why they sound right as the bottom notes? It seems the song is in the key of F minor(somehow both hibidy & I were sure it was in c minor?!), and the bass line's progression feels dominated by F with a lot of emphasis on Bb. This doesn't make terribly much sense to me. Seems random. Certainly it's not though... any idea whats up with that?

Thanks a ton for your help. If anyone else has thoughts though, I'd love to hear them.

[SWTrex]

Wow, I think you nailed it there. My ears don't fool me too often, and this sounds just about spot on. I added an extra set of C & F at another lower register for a little extra body, and but otherwise it's exactly as you describe.

So... How did you figure that out? Whats your listening process to find those? Or is there a logic you followed?

And another question comes to mind... why is it the C & F got the nod for bass notes in the pad? I mean, of course it sounds right, but is there a reason why they sound right as the bottom notes? It seems the song is in the key of F minor(somehow both hibidy & I were sure it was in c minor?!), and the bass line's progression feels dominated by F with a lot of emphasis on Bb. This doesn't make terribly much sense to me. Seems random. Certainly it's not though... any idea whats up with that?

Thanks a ton for your help. If anyone else has thoughts though, I'd love to hear them.

I dropped the audio file into my sequencer, loaded up an EP patch in a second track, and was able to play along with the audio to get it right. Being a keyboard player with a pretty strong understanding of chord voicings, it wasn't too difficult. (I've answered similar questions in the past and have been told I was way off, too )

Off the bat, I heard a major 7th in both chords...I could also hear the two notes a half step apart in the second chord (D & Eb) which clued me into the chord inversion. Figuring out the primary bass notes was by listening and trial and error.

Very rarely in modern music are chord voicings just "straight". It seems there are always 2nds, or 6ths, or 7ths (maj & min) thrown in. Even the chord inversions can be distinctive. It's often surprising what combinations of notes sound good together.

[jancivil]

...Whats your listening process to find those? Or is there a logic you followed?

And another question comes to mind... why is it the C & F got the nod for bass notes in the pad? I mean, of course it sounds right, but is there a reason why they sound right as the bottom notes? It seems the song is in the key of F minor(somehow both hibidy & I were sure it was in c minor?!) If anyone else has thoughts though, I'd love to hear them.

The thing one 'should' hear is, there is a strong stepwise movement, down a tone; F to Eb in fact. Then: 'what's the root movement?' It 'is' ii-I although the ambiguity of eg., 'C Eb G Bb' vs 'Eb G Bb C' and the suspension of that F in the bass* can make it seem kinda iv-i.

The reason for the choice of F to C in the bass, is these are your more obvious choices of the available chord tones in the first occurring chord, 'F minor 7'. [*: The chord does move down to 'Eb6' or 'C minor 7'. It's ambiguous: the F does not appear to 'resolve' to Eb (or if it does it does so after I bailed)]. There's only 2 chords constructed by thirds.. I knew what key because you told me.

There isn't a lot to this type of example. Do what sounds nice to you; if there be a rule of thumb, it's 'do a minimum of movement between these two harmonies'.
Where there are tones common to both, you're good to go, keep 'em. Where there are stepwise movements, do that.

F minor as a key would have a Db btw, so that's out, your D natural tells you that much.

[MOK19]

Oh, good lord, I think I'm going to have to re-read that a few times to really absorb it.

If not F minor, then what key? Everything else seems to fit the scale.
Supposedly, the out-of-place D natural is the major 7th interval of the VII chord of the F minor key.... But now we're hitting something I'm fuzzy on. Why is it that this non-scale tone can occur pleasantly even though the chord fits in the scale?

I just hit up wikipedia to try and investigate stuff surrounding the VII chord, and I think I found something to do with it...? F minor is a key where the 7th scale degree is a whole tone away from the octave, so the 7th is not a leading tone, but instead a subtonic. So I guess it behaves a little differently? Or is this unrelated? I'm really just grasping here...

Or is it that this song is not operating on one scale, and is instead operating according to one of two chords every 2 measures?

All this stuff is just slightly over my head, I'm rather novice with theory. I'm halfway inclined to just drop it since that D sounds good there despite it not fitting the mold, although I do find this stuff interesting.

[psenior]

MOK19, I haven't listened to your tune or anything because other posters are handling it. As far as your theory question, when I see VII chord, in major I know that is a half diminished or minor 7b5 chord. To me, this gets treated as a dominant chord because it is the same as a dominant 9th chord without the root. I know that I can play whatever note I want over a dominant chord and make it sound good. I can't give you a quick explanation on how I do that. Search my posts on this forum for some ideas. I only think in terms of tonic and dominant. I don't care about subtonic or anything else that makes music more complicated than it needs to be.

P.S. - I really like that Lou Reed song that goes "My name is Mok, thanks a lot." Your username reminds me of it.

[MOK19]

Wow, that's going to take some revisiting for me to completely understand.

There's one sentence that sticks out though:
"To me, this gets treated as a dominant chord"
Alright, I'd better back up; What's a dominant chord, and what does that entail? Is that simply the I and V?

As for searching your posts, that may be difficult - Got any clues so I know which ones to look for?

[psenior]

Yes, V is dominant. I is tonic. Perhaps I should have said dominant 7th chord? I also sometimes speak in terms of dominant scales. You might think of it as mixolydian or bebop dominant. Honestly, I am probably the only person on here who thinks like this. You certainly can look at music from your own chosen perspective and still be 100% correct and get good results.

You can do a search by username. Probably the threads where ecsmix was asking me tons of questions would be a good place to start. You seem to be interested in chord voicings, so I searched for and found 2 threads with info that may help you. Again, I think about music theory slightly differently so if you don't get it or don't find it useful, no worries.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... rd+voicing

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... rd+voicing

[MOK19]

I'm positive that I'll learn a 'lil something extra in those posts that I can apply to my perspective, and perhaps process. Over the past couple days on the DAW, I've already come into some new understandings, so you've been quite helpful, which I greatly appreciate. I know quite well how much effort goes into in-depth exploratory and how-to posts like these. The sound design section is my stomping ground for such things, so I'll repay the favor if I get the chance.

[bpgeez]

I'm positive that I'll learn a 'lil something extra in those posts that I can apply to my perspective, and perhaps process. Over the past couple days on the DAW, I've already come into some new understandings, so you've been quite helpful, which I greatly appreciate. I know quite well how much effort goes into in-depth exploratory and how-to posts like these. The sound design section is my stomping ground for such things, so I'll repay the favor if I get the chance.

Dont have a lot of theory to put behind it, but... sounds like a simple Cmin to Gmn... I think it might be a little hard to interpret based on the detuning (phatenning) and modulation of the pad