Irritating problem with Cantabile and keystation pro88

[sangiorgio]

Hi there!

New to the forum here.

I've been using Cantabile as a professional musician on stage for a month now, and I have an irritating problem with the setup.
If I start up the software and play, no problem. But the second I leave the PC alone for a couple of seconds, It takes two pushes on a key on the keystation to send the first MIDI information.
So basically, you have to push two times on the 'G' key to hear a 'G' (and to see it being transmitted in Cantabile). After that you can play normally up until you leave the keyboard for more than, let's say, ten seconds. And then the problem comes back again.

The only 'workaround' is to restart the software, but beeing onstage in front of thousands of people, you can imagine, is not that practical.


Is this a known issue, or should I blame my keystation?
I have allready tried two different laptops, vista 32 and Win7 64, and different updates of the software.
Also, I use an M-audio fasttrack pro USB as an interface (soon an EMU 1616M).

Thanks!

[TiUser]

First, welcome!

This sounds odd.

Do you have any power save options set on your PC? Try to switch all that off on your PC. I guess there is some kind of power save for usb going on.

[Edit:] Do you run the keyboard usb powered? Maybe try to use an external power supply or a powered hub instead. I have the suspicion that this can sometimes be one reason for strange trouble and oddities with midi devices.

[sangiorgio]

First, welcome!

This sounds odd.

Do you have any power save options set on your PC? Try to switch all that off on your PC. I guess there is some kind of power save for usb going on.

Well, that was one of the first things I thought of. So I set my laptop's advanced energy settings to never put stuff in stand-by or sleep (basicly, keep everything running full scale).
The reason I suspect the software is to blame is the fact that "the bug" stops once I exit the program and rerun it again (that's what I do on stage now, hardly elegant but with succes so far).
Any more input is appreciated!

Pzz,
Alex

[bradr]

Hi sangiorgio,

This does sound very odd, and I've not had any other reports of anything like this.

Given that it happens so readily, you should be able to isolate the cause of this fairly quickly through a process of elimination. Firstly I'd start with a brand new session and clean config (eg: run Cantabile using the "Alt-Config" start menu item). Setup your midi/asio config as appropriate and then test whether MIDI is getting to Cantabile - watch the MIDI in activity indicators in the bottom right corner of Cantabile's main window. If they stop flashing when playing notes then almost certainly it's a MIDI driver or keyboard issue.

If this seems to work, try loading just a single plugin and check plays correctly. If that doesn't work then it's possibly a bug in Cantabile, a plugin issue, or a mis-configuraiton of your session - in which case feel free to send me a copy of a session file and I'll check it out. Either way you might need to experiment with your setup a bit to isolate what's going on.

The 10 second delay is weird - I can't think of anything in Cantabile that is that timing dependant.

Brad

[billcar2004]

I have both cantabile performer and keystation pro 88. I have tested it here and it works fine. I dont get the same problem.

[TiUser]

I have both cantabile performer and keystation pro 88. I have tested it here and it works fine. I dont get the same problem.

It would be helpful if you describe your setup a bit more in detail.

Are you using a desktop or laptop pc, are you powering your keyboard via usb buspower or a separate power plug? Maybe there's more that can be useful.

Again, my suspicion is that usb buspower is not always sufficient to power keyboards stable... and only chance to find out is analyzing setups more in detail.

[billcar2004]

Sorry for the long absence.
I am using a desktop pc running winxp. I use an EMU0404 sound card. I run my keystation usb powered with no problems, so it uses usb to send midi note messages. but I also send midi note messages throuhg midi cable, when I want to use my alesis QSR. I have midi cables routed through this and into the 0404 card. All works no problems.
My desktop is only amd64 3500+ processor with 512mb ram.
Liam

[tombuck]

i have a keystation pro 88 and have noticed similar and other odd behavior. i've noticed when i first fire everything up, my first notes i hit on the keystation controller are delayed, then hang for a moment, then i hit notes a few more times then it all works fine. this behavior happens every time when i first fire it up, but seems to be fine after.

however, i am noticing an alarming intermitten problem - on occasion my keystation controller just stops communicating with Cantabile. i will stop short of saying the controller stops transmitting because i don't know for sure. seems to happen after playing a while, and once i stop playing, no communication occurs with Cantabile. this has happened playing live, and just happened again in practice this evening. the only thing to get it communicating is to restart Cantabile.

i use the USB connection only, but will test MIDI along with a power supply to see if the problem goes away, as well as look at my usb power settings. problem is this behavior is totally unpredictable and unable to replicate on demand. the other problem is it appears the keystation pro 88 is discontinued by m-audio.

wondering if "all notes off" in Cantabile can be used to quickly reset and re-establish communications with a controller(s).

[TiUser]

Interesting. I use a Emu X-Board 61 with Cantabile and have occasionally similar problems (Vista 64) losing midi connection - but I can not reproduce the effect for sure.

When it happens again, could you check the following procedure instead of restarting Cantabile? Just open the setup dialog, uncheck and recheck the midi in port of the keyboard and click ok. In my case this procedure helps to reconnect without restarting Cantabile.

I've suggested Brad adding a panic function wich just does this, trying to reconnect all midi devices. I don't think it's a Cantabile issue (still I suspect it to be a usb power supply issue - without having evidence so far), but it is a practical issue for live players - I hate that happening at home too - and such a button or option in Cantabile would be a helpful workaround.

[Alex SA]

I also have a keystation pro and VERY OFTEN it seems to "lose comunication" with cantabile (like Tombuck's problem).

I have found, like TIUser suggests, that unchecking and rechecking the midi in port sometimes (more often than not) solves the problem. Other times I have to restart Cantabile.

I also have had this problem with a Keystation 88es.

My setup: XP profesional 32, 4GB Ram, dual core, keyboards run from USB cable, 5 to 10 plugins.

This really is a serious problem for me, as I play live.

[TiUser]

Remembering the early Cantabile beta blog the apps multitasking schema is quite complex - maybe there is something in there that makes that happen?

Again the old problem - deal with two parts and you don't know which one causes trouble... and each maker points at the other - if he reacts on such issues at all.

And I forgot that all makers are always pointing on Windows too - which is indeed not really great for realtime audio too...


HW may not be perfect too, but such basic things always work and if not you can point to one manufacturer - so such an essential problem will be solved... won't it?...

[tombuck]

revisiting this issue because it continues to be a real problem. my keystation pro 88 arbitrarily stops communicating with Cantabile x86. over months of observing i think i've narrowed it down a bit. here is my scenario - i have a sony vaio laptop with 2 usb ports on the side. i have an m-audio fasttrack ultra 8r usb unit plugged into one usb port, then my keystation pro plugs into the other usb port on the laptop. seems that when i plug an audio device into one of the fasttrack audio inputs, the keystation pro "disconnect" seems to occur more frequently. as though the fasttrack usb port uses more bandwidth and interferes with the keystation pro usb port and cantabile doesn't seem to like that. i've also noticed when the "disconnect" occurs, i've run Sonar 8.5 simultaneously and the keystation pro works fine - so the problem seeeems to be with cantabile (maybe).

so, what i did was get a powered usb port, i now plug both the fasttrack and keystation pro into the usb port, and the usb port plugs into the one of the laptop's usb ports. still testing this scenario but so far so good. not sure if it is the powered usb thing, or consolidating the one laptop usb port that is helping...

curious to know if those with similar problems are using 2 distinct usb ports on their computers.

[TiUser]

Since I've deactivated an option in my Emu X-Board that sets the midi out to be used as a pc-midi out the midi disconnects I've sometimes experienced seem having gone... So it was probably a rarely occurring emu firmware and/or emu midi driver related issue...

The other way round, I've never had any problem with my Edirol PCR keyboard controller - rock solid performance, good drivers and driver support.

Old story, the more parts you deal with... and the weakest link determines the stability of a total chain...

Now don't ask for benefits of hardware, there are still some...

[Ashville.Guru]

When it happens again, could you check the following procedure instead of restarting Cantabile? Just open the setup dialog, uncheck and recheck the midi in port of the keyboard and click ok. In my case this procedure helps to reconnect without restarting Cantabile.

I've suggested Brad adding a panic function wich just does this, trying to reconnect all midi devices. I don't think it's a Cantabile issue (still I suspect it to be a usb power supply issue - without having evidence so far), but it is a practical issue for live players - I hate that happening at home too - and such a button or option in Cantabile would be a helpful workaround.

I've had the same issue - I have nightmares about this disconnect happening on stage! I can confirm something to similar to what TIUser has suggested - when the 'disconnect' happens, I go to setup-> device-> right click -> toggle the 'midi clock' feature (something that I never use anyway) and the connection is back - about 90% of the time. Sometimes need to repeat this once or twice.

Whether this is an OS issue or not - the above clearly suggests that a 'panic' feature can be added to Cantabile. I have a further suggestion - it would be great if this 'resetting' can happen, say every 30 seconds of no midi input. That way, one doesnt have to reach for a mouse on stage to reset it... alternatively, 'reset' can be triggerred everytime there's a new USB midi-in device detected. That way, one can just switch off/switch on the a keyboard, for example, to reconnect.

IMHO, this is a very, very serious, issue, and for Cantabile to be a solid, reliable product for live use, such a feature should be indespensable. It's the feature I'd like to see most in the next update to Cantabile.
Cheers,

Guru

[TiUser]

I am really not sure if Cantabile is to punish.

Reconnecting midi devices is not the same like usual midi panic functions and can take serious time. Doing that every 30 sec after inactivity? And if you press the keys just right this instant nothing happens... great! I'd vote for a button - probably not assigned via midi...

Maybe we can explore systematically:

Who had this trouble with plug&play windows midi drivers?

Who had trouble with dedicated drivers and which manufacturer?

What else has been noticed?


My 2ct:

Edirol seems to support pretty good drivers.


To fuel some controversy:

CME seems to provide extremly bad drivers.

M-Audio it also not my favorite for several stories I've read about their "support" and habit dealing with issues.


I think we are lost 'til Brad is back - also there is a note that probably a new release with minor bugfixes is close... just check the Topten Blog...