Where do pentatonic scales come from?

[neueliteratur]

Hi folks,

Minor pentatonic is 1 3- 4 5 7-. Major pentatonic is 1 2 3 5 6.

Why are they what they are, and not any other possible combination? For example, why is minor pentatonic 1 3- 4 5 7- and not, say, 1 2 3- 5 7-?

And why are minor and major pentatonics have different degrees, (as opposed to the natural minor scale having the same degrees 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 as the major scale)?

Thank you.

[Km7]

Take four perfect fifths and you have the pentatonic scale: C - G - D - A - E. When reduced to an octave (as it is usually done to form a stepwise scale), it becomes: C D E G A. The minor pentatonic is an 'inversion' of it, just as the diatonic minor scale lies a minor third below the major, so you get: A C D E G.

So, basically, the major pentatonic is like the diatonic major scale without the 4th and 7th degrees, while the minor pentatonic is like the natural minor scale without the 2nd and 6th degrees. The fewer amount of tones in total and the absence of semitones give it a more 'open' sound, without the prominent tonal tendency / attraction as in the diatonic major and minor scales.

There are other pentatonic scales, of course. For example, the Japanese scale Hirajoshi: 1 2- 4 5 6- (to use your notation). Note the characteristic minor second as well as the absence of the third degree, which makes the scale kinda neutral - all this gives it the specific Japanese flavour.

[Melkor]

You'll notice that the semitone intervals have been removed, which Varadin pointed out in the previous post.

1 b3 4 5 b7 - no semitones, only tones and 3rds
1 2 3 5 6 - " "

[ckatrun411]

Most pentatonic scales come from a long, long time ago; some scales have also been known to come from a galaxy far, far, far away...

[Cordelia]

Take four perfect fifths and you have the pentatonic scale: C - G - D - A - E. When reduced to an octave (as it is usually done to form a stepwise scale), it becomes: C D E G A. The minor pentatonic is an 'inversion' of it, just as the diatonic minor scale lies a minor third below the major, so you get: A C D E G.

So, basically, the major pentatonic is like the diatonic major scale without the 4th and 7th degrees, while the minor pentatonic is like the natural minor scale without the 2nd and 6th degrees. The fewer amount of tones in total and the absence of semitones give it a more 'open' sound, without the prominent tonal tendency / attraction as in the diatonic major and minor scales.

There are other pentatonic scales, of course. For example, the Japanese scale Hirajoshi: 1 2- 4 5 6- (to use your notation). Note the characteristic minor second as well as the absence of the third degree, which makes the scale kinda neutral - all this gives it the specific Japanese flavour.

Very interesting. Thank you. I wrote a similar scale out for myself two days ago and was going to post here to ask what it is called. In C it would be C Db E F G Ab B C? (OK, I'm not sure how that scale should be written...)

[C00kie]

I wrote a similar scale out for myself two days ago and was going to post here to ask what it is called. In C it would be C Db E F G Ab B C? (OK, I'm not sure how that scale should be written...)

I'd call that the Camel Scale

[unpeople]

I wrote a similar scale out for myself two days ago and was going to post here to ask what it is called. In C it would be C Db E F G Ab B C?

That's known as an Arabic Scale, or a Double Harmonic Major.

Also, regarding the pentatonic: you may have noticed that the black keys on a piano form an Eb- pentatonic scale, and a Gb major pentatonic. Therefore, you can think of a pentatonic as being formed by subtracting a major scale from a chromatic scale, or as the inverse of a major scale.

[Cordelia]

I wrote a similar scale out for myself two days ago and was going to post here to ask what it is called. In C it would be C Db E F G Ab B C?

That's known as an Arabic Scale, or a Double Harmonic Major.

Thanks!

[Ogg Vorbis]

Hi folks,

Minor pentatonic is 1 3- 4 5 7-. Major pentatonic is 1 2 3 5 6.

Why are they what they are, and not any other possible combination? For example, why is minor pentatonic 1 3- 4 5 7- and not, say, 1 2 3- 5 7-?

And why are minor and major pentatonics have different degrees, (as opposed to the natural minor scale having the same degrees 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 as the major scale)?

Thank you.

Many cultures have come up with this scale. Practically everyone intuitively knows how this scale works...



So where does it come from? Every culture uses the minor third to call their children, dogs, tease (na-na! na-na!).

It is the natural fall of the voice. The minor third is "built in" to our physiology. Add a natural scale step to the top of your interval and now you have a little proto-scale that is A-C-D. This is also used in every culture.

Teeter totter, bread and water,
Wash your face in dirty water.

Ring around the rosie,
Pocket full of posie
Ashes, ashes we all fall down (from the black plague days?)

Billie's got a girl friend!

Ha ha ha ha haaaa haaaa

etc.

If you take two of these three-note proto scales and combine them one on top of the other...

A C D....E G A.

You get the minor pentatonic. Shift the whole thing up without changing any intervals and you get the major pentatonic C D E G A C

So it's based on the human voice. Okay, NONE of this is scientific. This is one guy's guess. Please do not go to universities and quote this as a "finding."

[Km7]

Well, I wouldn't say this is something new (explanation through forming trichords or tetrachords and then combining them) and Helmholtz actually made similar explanations long time ago. It could be argued that major third is more 'natural' than the minor, though.

[C00kie]

So where does it come from? Every culture uses the minor third to call their children, dogs, tease (na-na! na-na!).

It is the natural fall of the voice. The minor third is "built in" to our physiology.

if I had to analyse that, I'd go for them singing "so mi so mi". So that would make it in a major natural scale, while technically the interval is a minor third.

[Ogg Vorbis]

So where does it come from? Every culture uses the minor third to call their children, dogs, tease (na-na! na-na!).

It is the natural fall of the voice. The minor third is "built in" to our physiology.

if I had to analyse that, I'd go for them singing "so mi so mi". So that would make it in a major natural scale, while technically the interval is a minor third.

Yup! I can see it with that lens too.

[jancivil]

You'll notice that the semitone intervals have been removed, which Varadin pointed out in the previous post.

1 b3 4 5 b7 - no semitones, only tones and 3rds
1 2 3 5 6 - " "

REMOVED? There are cultures which just don't bother much with anything past a 5-note pitch set in a tune. The "history of music" isn't necessarily based on heptatonic scales as if that's essential. Quite the reverse. Pentatonic scales are not reduced from heptatonic ones; except for, culturally speaking, in the vast minority of musical histories on this planet. And that's an incredibly new development, restricted to Eurocentric thought.

When Europeans started doing 'pentatonic', they were imitating Gamelan musics etc. EG: Oriental Music Expo of 1880-something. The music they (Cf., Debussy) were imitating might have a 7-note scale as *adding 2 unnecessary tones*.

[egbert]

Very interesting. Thank you. I wrote a similar scale out for myself two days ago and was going to post here to ask what it is called. In C it would be C Db E F G Ab B C? (OK, I'm not sure how that scale should be written...)

That is a great scale - McLaughlin lists it as a Double Harmonic Minor in his little glossary of scales in the Mahavishnu Orchestra songbook but it has lots of names - it is linked to Gypsy music also. The two augmented seconds make for interesting melodies and harmonically it is unique - check out the set of chords that fit on it - eg CMa7 and C#Ma7 are both scale tone chords of that scale.

[jancivil]

So where does it come from? Every culture uses the minor third to call their children, dogs, tease (na-na! na-na!).

It is the natural fall of the voice. The minor third is "built in" to our physiology.

if I had to analyse that, I'd go for them singing "so mi so mi". So that would make it in a major natural scale, while technically the interval is a minor third.

That's a harmonic concept. "Built into our physiology" is most probably what's happening. Taking a basic natcheral interval what just came out yo mouf and considering it to be an, other-than-basic function (such as 'the third of a minor scale') is an intellectual concept on a level which relatively few mamas callin they babies have time for these days I think.